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D&D 5E Should the next edition of D&D promote more equality?

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JonWake

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More gold: Forgotten Strong Women- Katie Sandwina
http://thehumanmarvels.com/878/sandwina-woman-of-steel/strong

sandwina-213x300.jpg

"Kate’s natural strength came from her lineage and physical proportions. In adolescence Kate stood just over six feet tall and weighed 187 pounds. She honed her natural abilities through intensive exercise and in her heyday was known for her bulging 17 inch biceps and 26 ½ inch thighs. Kate initially displayed her muscular girth to the paying patrons of the circuses her father contracted with. She was initially a wrestler of men and famously offered 100 marks to any man who could best her. According to legend, she never lost her bet and even gained a husband after soundly thrashing a young man by the name of Max Heymann. Heymann thought tussling with a woman would be a rather delightful way to earn 100 marks. But by his own account he recalled only entering the ring, a blue sky and being carried away from the ring by Kate like a prize. The couple remained married for 52 years."

She even took a challenge from the bodybuilding legend Eugene Sandow.

tumblr_m39i2zQgEJ1r1zgo7.jpg

"Sandow was a man carved of granite. Indeed, he had sculpted his body to resemble the statues of the old gods he saw as a child. He was considered the most physically gifted man in the world and Kate was certain that she had made a grave error in judgement. Still the contest began as Kate began lifting increasingly heavy weights and Sandow, subsequently, lifted those she was done with. This went on for some time, until Kate hoisted the unholy sum of 300 pounds above her head with one hand. Sandow could only raise the weight to his chest and Kate was declared the winner. It was shortly thereafter that Kate adopted the name Sandwina – a feminine derivative of ‘Sandow’ – though it is unclear if this action was a tribute or a taunt."

Minerva
http://thehumanmarvels.com/124/minerva-and-charmion-strongwomen/strong
JosephineBlatt-754548.jpg

In her displays she demonstrated her strength by breaking horseshoes with her hands, breaking steel chains by expanding her chest, and playing catch with a 24 pound cannon ball. She was capable to lift a stone weight of 360 lbs with a single finger thrust through a lifting ring. Furthermore, The Guinness Book of Records recognized Minerva as having lifted the greatest weight ever by a woman. At the Bijou Theatre in Hoboken on April 15, 1895 Josephine Blatt lifted 3,564 lbs in a hip-and-harness lift. With that superhuman lift, Josephine Blatt nearly achieved the mythical status of her namesake.


And while we're talking about badass warrior women, let's not forget Rhonda Rousey.
130224010844-rousey-fight-5-single-image-cut.jpg
 

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TanithT

First Post
Excellent post, [MENTION=95255]JonWake[/MENTION]. I'm not sure anyone does hip and harness lifts any more, but I do know that women who lift even semi seriously tend to really excel in lower body strength. I would characterize myself as a semi serious lifter, and I found it quite amusing when a strong young college man who had the leg press ahead of me courteously inquired if I wanted him to unload some of the 45's when he was done with his work sets. I said no, ten plates would be fine for my light warmup set. Poor guy. His face just crumpled.

I don't look particularly strong, nor am I tall. I'm an ordinary appearing, short, middling aged genetic female. I have however squatted my car out of a ditch because I couldn't be bothered to wait for Triple A. It's a small car, and I doubt I took its entire weight due to the physics of the situation. Probably more like half of it. This is not a particularly remarkable feat among women who lift. My PT at the time was a serious competitor, unlike me, and her work sets and max lifts were way past mine.

The peeps hollering on that boob armor thread about how women are too weak to wear armor? Have clearly never been to a Gold's Gym. Because that is very, very silly. I am not exceptional in any way, I am a dilettante hobbyist lifter at best, and I do not find it the least bit difficult to run in well fitted 18 gauge partial plate and chain. Hot and sweaty, yes. Would not particularly want to do a marathon in the stuff. If it isn't well fitted and padded, there are other issues with moving in it, but as long as it is fitted you do not really feel the weight. What you feel is warm, so your time in it is limited chiefly by how much Gatorade you need to chug versus how often you have to stop to pee. The answer in hot weather is "a lot" and "often", and that is quite honestly the chief complaint of wearing the stuff in an SCA war or a LARP where there is a lot of literal running around and bashing people about with rattan weapons.
 

JonWake

First Post
Ain't that the truth. When I was lifting, my workout buddy looked like 85 pounds of nothing, but the girl was a former gymnast and dense as wood. She could squat me under the table.

When people don't think there's such thing as strong women, it's not because there aren't any, it's because at some point, someone made a decision not to mention them. But they've always been around. And for every one of them that did amazing things, there were untold thousands who had the desire to be great but couldn't see any way out of their situation.

And to 'sex sells/it's fantasy/you're a prude' people. I get it. You used to own the conversation. If you put some spine-twisted pin-up on a book cover, no one would say boo about it. But we were thinking it. And now it's the 21st century, and everyone who has been told to shut up is speaking out freely. And they're not too happy with how things have been going. But that's not censorship or bullying. It's calling out bigotry and stupidity.

I'll tell you what is bullying-- check out what happened to Anita Sarkeesian, or any of a thousand other women who have to audacity to criticize nerd culture online. Read the death threats, the rape threats, the hacking attempts and the endless hateful speech. And it is endless.

Then realize you're crying in your cereal about someone calmly explaining to you that your opinions are not the be-all-end-all of nerd culture.
 

Dausuul

Legend
JonWake, good stuff there! I especially love the last picture, of Ronda Rousey, because it perfectly illustrates the difference between "women wearing revealing clothing" and "women being turned into sex objects." Rousey is showing quite a bit of skin in that picture, but she doesn't look like a pin-up; she looks like a barbarian warrior in the middle of wrecking somebody's day.
 
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JonWake

First Post
JonWake, good stuff there! I especially love the last picture, of Rhonda Rousey, because it perfectly illustrates the difference between "women wearing revealing clothing" and "women being turned into sex objects." Rhonda is showing quite a bit of skin in that picture, but she doesn't look like a pin-up; she looks like a barbarian warrior in the middle of wrecking somebody's day.

Which is funny, because Rousey's dislocated more shoulders than... a machine designed to dislocated shoulders.

The simile sort of fell apart there.
 

pemerton

Legend
One can't prove a negative.
Mathematicians prove negatives all the time - for instance, that any system powerful enough to generate arithmetic will not be complete (ie will contain truths for which there is no proof).

In this particular case you are the one asserting the negative - namely, that there are no moral obligations or constraints that constrain illustration and publication. I would expect you to have some reasons that support this assertion.

My argument is that there's no basis to say that such a decision is a moral one, when viewed via deontological ethics (e.g. in terms of the act of portraying an image, unto itself).

<snip>

I've explained my reasoning on this many times throughout this thread.
And my point is that mere assertion is not argument.

Anyway here is my counterarguent, also framed deontologically: it is wrong to demean others; some works of art are demeaning of others (eg as evidenced by their responses to them, some of which are found in this very thread); given that there is a general duty not to do what is wrong (everything else being equal), there is therefore a duty not to publish such works of art; for commercial publishers it is particularly likely that everything else will be equal, given that they have no countervailing interests of moral significance such as the need for personal authenticity.

Whether or not you (or anyone else) thinks this is a good argument, it clearly shows that deontology has no particular significance in this context.

On the contrary, the issue of contextualization is an exceptionally strong argument, which I presume is why you haven't offered anything to refute it this far.
My objection is pretty clear: that you grossly exaggerate the difficulty of interpreting art and intentions. I ascertain intentions and honesty everyday in ordinary conversation, in watching advertisements, in reading books. Your typical fantasy illustrator is not Picasso. The work is not very subtle. And your contention that the words on a book to which a picture is an illustration have no bearing on construing the picture is not very plausible. I suppose it's conceivable that the girl in the red cloak on the front of my kids' copy of Little Red Riding Hood is not really the titular character - but even if that's conceivable, it's very unlikely.

Insofar as trying to ask what makes a specific action a specific action, I can only guess that you're asking for a level of detail so specific as to be virtually non-existent. Can you tell me what makes the act of running running, as opposed to jogging? Or hustling? Or walking very quickly?
The issue is not about vagueness. The issue is that in each of those cases - running, jogging, hustling, walking - the action is individuated by the result it produces (in those cases, various forms of movement via the legs).

Yet you claim that I can conceive of, and then evaluate, an action without reference to its result. All I'm asking is how, on this account, you individuate actions.

(I don't this literature as well as the moral philosophy literature, but the classic work I think of is Davidson's essays in the collection Essays on Actions and Events.)

So you cite a source that you say backs your claims, and then can't cite a source for them? That's not a very credible way to present what you hold to be supporting evidence.
I am guessing that you have not heard of Duff or Gardner or Ashworth or Tasioulas or Pogge or Henry Shue until I posted their names in this thread. (I am assuming that you have heard before of Kant, Aquinas and Peter Singer - they are better known outside the field.)

There's nothing wrong with that - I don't expect non-philosophers to follow the field any more than I follow fields in which I don't work - but it makes your insistence on "evidence" a bit odd. I've given names. Google or Wikipedia will give you their writings. The chairs that they hold will show that they are eminent in their field.

But if you want some more detail, here are some suggestions: on versions of consequentialism and deontology I suggest Pogge's Realizing Rawls, ch 1 - in which he articulates and defends what he takes to be Rawls' "contract consequentialism" - and then Pogge's later recantation of this view in World Poverty and Human Rights, ch 1, in which he defends a non-consequentialist theory of human rights as a minimal theory of justice. (Among other things, what this will make clear is that the contrast between consequentialist and non-consequentialist morality is not about whether or not consequences matter, but about whether anything matters other than the effect that an action has on aggregate welfare: consequentialists deny that anything else matters, whereas deontologists assert that some other things matter to the evaluation of action.)

For a classic presentation of the mainstream contemporary theory of the criminal justice system defended by Duff, Gardner, Tasioulas, Tadros etc you might read Duff's Trials and Punishments. For what I personally think is a powerful critique of this (but not one that entails morality has no bearing on law) you could read Scott Veitch's Law and Irresponsibility. (But Veitch's work is not, in my view, mainstream.)
 

mythago

Hero
I have nothing against showing male nudity either, where appropriate.

Showing female nudity? EVERY DAY, ALL THE TIME. The female body is healthy and natural and even ladies love looking at it!!!

Showing male nudity? Whoa there, hoss. That's okay where appropriate.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
Exactly, and I am very tired of all female characters being portrayed as silly by default.

That's not what I said. I said the comparison is silly because "sexy" female armor and poses are designed to exaggerate what people find sexually about women. "Sexy" male armor and poses are designed to exaggerate what people find sexually attractive about men. Those things are different.

And it is most certainly not "all" female characters. While many may still be portrayed as sexual, I'm going to have to argue that the definition of what is "sexy" in women has grown wider with the times.
 

Nellisir

Hero
Similarly, "Asian"- if you don't know someone's particular country of origin- is the go-to replacement for the outdated "oriental". (The "O-word" is reserved for objects in contemporary language.)
This. I did use "Oriental" once in some context in my wife's presence early in our relationship; she told me it was rude and Asian was preferred. (I honestly forget what the context was, and she wasn't nasty about it, just matter-of-fact "don't use that again, OK?" So I don't.)
 

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