Dragonlance DRAGONLANCE LIVES! Unearthed Arcana Explores Heroes of Krynn!

Fifth Element said:

No one should do it, because of the negative connotations it carries in the real world. Real-world people are more important than an imaginary game we play. We really don't lose anything by such a concept not being in a published work by a particular game company. You're free to include it in your own games if you like.


That's what you're missing - the association of Romani with thievery is so strong that any race of people who are all thieves are implicitly tied to that view. It sucks, but it's a fact. And as a publisher, you have to consider that fact. WotC can't pretend that association doesn't exist in reality.

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Maybe you miss that we are talking of the association of Kender with Romani. Not the association of Romani with Thievery. Who jumps from Kender to Romani do a false logic assumption.
All Romani are thieves, Kender are all thieves, Kender are Romani? NO
All Drow are black, all drow are evil, Black people are evil? NO
These are wrong logic conclusion.
This is a fact rooted in logic rules and correct reasoning. Sorry but I'm not anti inclusive if I say that who say this is in error. I don't blame anybody for a logic error, but it remains a logic error and I don't have to change my words to prehevent a logic error.
Since it is perfectly possible to distinguish a broken logic conclusion from a real anti-inclusive content, it would be better to take who feels offended and explain them why they are in error or ignore them.
The evidence I have is that now Pubishers cut everything: anti inclusive content (for good reasons) AND everything that can be considered anti inclusive if broken logic is applied (for marketing reasons).

Stefano Rinaldelli said:

Unfortunately I do not miss anything. Maybe you miss that we are talking of the association of Kender with Romani. Not the association of Romani with Thievery. Who jumps from Kender to Romani do a false logic assumption.
All Romani are thieves, Kender are all thieves, Kender are Romani? NO, please go back to school.
All Drow are black, all drow are evil, Black people are evil? NO, please go back to school.
These are wrong logic conclusion.
This is a fact rooted in logic rules and correct reasoning. Sorry but I'm not anti inclusive if I say that who say this is in error. I don't blame anybody for a logic error, but it remains a logic error and I don't have to change my words to prehevent a logic error.

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That's irrelevant. You might see it as a logic error, but WotC do not have that luxury.

Humans, as Spock would point out, are not logical.

James Gasik said:

Her Strength would have to be a 17 as well, right? Dual-classing was so obnoxious I only did it once, and wasn't too impressed with the result.

That was one of the things I did like about the Heroes of the Lance, they had more reasonable ability scores. Raistlin Majere, jerkass Wizard extraordinaire, for example, had a 17 Intelligence and couldn't even comprehend the highest tier of magic (and came with a crippling Con score). The one Fighter with exceptional Strength, Caramon, had a fairly low percentage (I think, it's been awhile, and I'm too lazy to look it up).

A lot of featured characters in novels at the time had stupendous stats all around (not all though, the heroes of the Time of Troubles were not fantastic), like Tristan Kendrick (Moonshaes) or Wulfgar (Icewind Dale).

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This is not true. Here is the stats for the Heroes of the Lance:


Caramon, and Riverwind both had percentile strengths. Raistin had an average Constitution. And whoever said that Druids don't exist in Krynn really had no idea what they were talking about.

Paul Farquhar said:

That's irrelevant. You might see it as a logic error, but WotC do not have that luxury.

Humans, as Spock would point out, are not logical.

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Agree with you. When in doubt, cut down. You have to sell to the max and this strategy is ok.
But it is not free of backlashes.
You can be more or less sensitive to the issue but this phenomenon is by matter of fact a self inflicted limitation of freedom of expression.
It is irrelevant if you are talking about marketing.
But this phenomenon is diffuse in society and does not involve only marketing aspects, but a more general way by which we develop our interpersonal communication and it could be very problematic when it jumps from marketing to science, politics and so on.

Stefano Rinaldelli said:

Maybe you miss that we are talking of the association of Kender with Romani. Not the association of Romani with Thievery. Who jumps from Kender to Romani do a false logic assumption.
All Romani are thieves, Kender are all thieves, Kender are Romani? NO
All Drow are black, all drow are evil, Black people are evil? NO
These are wrong logic conclusion.
This is a fact rooted in logic rules and correct reasoning. Sorry but I'm not anti inclusive if I say that who say this is in error. I don't blame anybody for a logic error, but it remains a logic error and I don't have to change my words to prehevent a logic error.
Since it is perfectly possible to distinguish a broken logic conclusion from a real anti-inclusive content, it would be better to take who feels offended and explain them why they are in error or ignore them.
The evidence I have is that now Pubishers cut everything: anti inclusive content (for good reasons) AND everything that can be considered anti inclusive if broken logic is applied (for marketing reasons).

Click to expand...

This is a paragraph from the Complete Bard's Handbook for a subclass called Gypsy Bard. It was supposed to emulate the gypsy performer/dancer trope. Notice what they say about private property? Notice how it is similar to a kender?

That's the issue. You may choose to ignore it, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

Oh, a gypsy-bard was a PC option. They were supposed to be heroes.

We should can choose between kenders with the normal racial traits of a halfling lightfoot, or a "old-school pureblood" kender.

We shouldn't reject all the possible changes, because someones are inevitable or even necessary, but we can talk as civilized people about where are the limits of tolerance. Maybe in the future videojuego the creation of characters is totally customizable and you can create a female Tanis the half-elf and a male Laurana (yes, even being both a straight couple it sounds very yaoi), and we shouldn't worry because those changes aren't canon at all.

When the fandom creates stories about alternate timelines of Krynn, this is also playing Dragonlance, and we should allow it.

We are too used with resurecctions in the D&D games, but in the books, it happens rarely, but this is the reason when the death of the main characters are so dramatic (when in the comics of superheroes it happens so many times, and even without magic).

* What if the famous legendary kender "Uncle Trapspringer" was a "vestige spirit", and all kenders with the trait "kender ace" were unconsciounsly linked with this by fault or a teorically harmless traditional ritual? Maybe their bags are magic, but these only can be attuned with kenders.

* What if the civilitation from Zivilyn was so avanced than there were a mence for the "akasha-spheres"? If the Historic timeline was a file in a computer the "akasha-sphere" would be like an informatic backup, a demiplane "snow globe" imitanting the past, to avoid paradoxes created by possible chronomancers and other time-travelers. The Zivilian civilitation found some way to rewrite the akasha-spheres, and that may be too dangerous.

And what if Nehzmyth, other planet from the Krynnspace was a dark domain?

* WotC wants all D&D franchises to be where all the different roleplayers can feel wellcome. Here the inclusivity isn't forced but sincere, at least by marketing reasons, more roleplayers enjoying with your products, more money with the sales.

* Dragonlance as TTRPG will return, and we will see some retcons, but only the cominsoon literary trilogy, the metaplot will be frozen, maybe even rebooted, and we will see more changes when in a future phase Hasbro dares to produce a teleserie (maybe computer animation, the retro 80's look was not a bad idea).

Remathilis said:

This is a paragraph from the Complete Bard's Handbook for a subclass called Gypsy Bard. It was supposed to emulate the gypsy performer/dancer trope. Notice what they say about private property? Notice how it is similar to a kender?

That's the issue. You may choose to ignore it, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

Oh, a gypsy-bard was a PC option. They were supposed to be heroes.

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The page you link is a good example of identification between REAL and FICTIONAL. The fact that Gipsies are identified with thieves could be considered a REAL ISSUE.
Viceversa the fact that Gipsy Bard have a particular trait in common with Kender is not sufficient to say that Kender are inspired nor by Gipsies or even more by Romani people.
You report a good example of what is a real issue and what is a misinterpretation, a faulty logic jump.
In China, western people are called "Long Nose". Do you think that a chinese is so naive to believe that every person with a long nose comes from the west? You can't jump from Particular to General.

Hussar said:

This is not true. Here is the stats for the Heroes of the Lance:

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Caramon, and Riverwind both had percentile strengths. Raistin had an average Constitution. And whoever said that Druids don't exist in Krynn really had no idea what they were talking about.

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That's a later edition. No colour art in the original. And Tika is still not strong enough to legally dual class.

Now I want a PC that wields a magical Frying Pan as their main weapon.

Well I was going off of memory, Hussar. Poor Riverwind. I always forget about Riverwind. He's just so...there.

Speaking of Gypsies and unfortunate implications, let's not forget the Vistani of Ravenloft or the Aperusa of Spelljammer.