Battlestar Galactica:Season 2; Part 5 NSCR/8.12.05

Sir Brennen said:
Can you give some specific examples of what you're talking about?

The basic problem is that something indistinguishable from a human by the tests Baltar came up with before his 'Cylon detector' can't be anything but pretty much human.

How can you build something that's interfertile with humans but can breathe in a vacuum?

(Assuming the Boomer on Caprica isn't lying) How can you build something that's interfertile with humans but not with others of its own kind?

The technobabble around Baltar's Cylon detector is loony. If the human-looking Cylons are pretty much geneticly engineered humans (and if they're interfertile with humans, they have to be), then there may be telltale genetic markers that indicate Cylon bioengineering, but there's not going to be anything unusually about the underlying molecular structure.

If you want to create a human-Cylon hybrid, and you've got highly advanced biotech, can't you just use human sperm or ova from one of the millions of dead people around instead of creating an elaborate set-up?

Just for a start.
 

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drothgery said:
The basic problem is that something indistinguishable from a human by the tests Baltar came up with before his 'Cylon detector' can't be anything but pretty much human.

How can you build something that's interfertile with humans but can breathe in a vacuum?

(Assuming the Boomer on Caprica isn't lying) How can you build something that's interfertile with humans but not with others of its own kind?

The technobabble around Baltar's Cylon detector is loony. If the human-looking Cylons are pretty much geneticly engineered humans (and if they're interfertile with humans, they have to be), then there may be telltale genetic markers that indicate Cylon bioengineering, but there's not going to be anything unusually about the underlying molecular structure.

If you want to create a human-Cylon hybrid, and you've got highly advanced biotech, can't you just use human sperm or ova from one of the millions of dead people around instead of creating an elaborate set-up?

Just for a start.
All excellent questions, and most of them I've asked myself at one time or another. I trust in Ron Moore to have decent answers for them, and I hope that we'll find out at some point.
 

drothgery said:
How can you build something that's interfertile with humans but can breathe in a vacuum?
Why do these have to be related? They could be engineered to be able to store high amount of oxygen in their tissues, or certain tissues, that can be used as an emergency oxygen source - what does that have to do with not being interfertile?

(Assuming the Boomer on Caprica isn't lying) How can you build something that's interfertile with humans but not with others of its own kind?
Certain proteins are not engineered quite right, when you combine two copies of gene "a" it results in a non-viable egg. Combine with a "wild-type" gene and it can survive because the wild-type gene (its resulting protien) sustains the new embryo. Or, on a more metaphysical take: cylons do not in fact have souls and need humans and their souls to give their offspring life.

The technobabble around Baltar's Cylon detector is loony. If the human-looking Cylons are pretty much geneticly engineered humans (and if they're interfertile with humans, they have to be), then there may be telltale genetic markers that indicate Cylon bioengineering, but there's not going to be anything unusually about the underlying molecular structure.
Absoultely, but Baltar has not really been looking to be all that effective in his screening anyway, and he loves to make people think that only his genius can help them and he works oh, so hard sacrificing so much for them, so who says he picked the best, or easiest method?

If you want to create a human-Cylon hybrid, and you've got highly advanced biotech, can't you just use human sperm or ova from one of the millions of dead people around instead of creating an elaborate set-up?
If the need is for certain "wild-type" proteins to start fertilization, you will likely need eggs and sperm from living humans. Degradation of dead tissues may cause problems. If the key is metaphysical, then dead people's souls have moved on and cannot impart some of their essence to their offspring.
 

drothgery said:
The basic problem is that something indistinguishable from a human by the tests Baltar came up with before his 'Cylon detector' can't be anything but pretty much human.

Yes and No. I think the issue here is do you consider a clone to be a human being? It's the same as saying they have 'artificial intelligence'. At what point do they stop being considered 'artificially' intelligent. When they pass a Turing test? Mind you, I think Baltar is a BIG LIAR; a very lucky one, but a LIAR all the same. I'm not sure he knew if Sharon was a cylon or not.

I do think that it's possible to make a clone who's genetic material defies the normal mutations you'd expect. If Boomer's DNA, for example, has a some non-standard variances (or more likely, the lack thereof), that'd be something an advanced test might find. Who knows what shortcuts the cylons have taken? Which isn't to say Baltar's technobabble isn't just that. We'll have to wait and see on that one.

drothgery said:
How can you build something that's interfertile with humans but can breathe in a vacuum?

Dumb question: when did one of the human models do that?

drothgery said:
(Assuming the Boomer on Caprica isn't lying) How can you build something that's interfertile with humans but not with others of its own kind?

Heh. That's a big assumption. :D We don't know any of the limitations or failures of the process, yet. I'm willing to bet the human model cylons have lots of flaws and drawbacks...we just haven't seen them blatantly laid out, as of yet. For that matter, we don't know exactly how they're trying to reproduce....there may be restrictions based on holy doctrine which are limiting their approach.

drothgery said:
If you want to create a human-Cylon hybrid, and you've got highly advanced biotech, can't you just use human sperm or ova from one of the millions of dead people around instead of creating an elaborate set-up?

From one of the many dead, irradiated people? I'm not sure I'd trust whatever the dead had to offer, assuming they could be salvaged. Within 15 minutes after death, the body begins cooling, which certainly creates problems for the human reproductive cycle, which is dependent on strict control of the internal body temperature to maintain fertility. I'm sure there's a whole lot of biological reasons that could be given.

More importantly, I think a big factor that can't be discounted is the cylon's relgious and social outlooks. There may be far better ways to accomplish what they're doing...but their scriptures and their issues with mankind may get in the way of that.
 

How can you build something that's interfertile with humans but can breathe in a vacuum?
Thornir's explaination is quite reasonable.

(Assuming the Boomer on Caprica isn't lying) How can you build something that's interfertile with humans but not with others of its own kind?
I think the assumption that might be off the mark is that they want the copies to be intrafertile. I don't think that's the case. I think the cylon's religious/metaphysical beliefs are leading their 'experiment' - the idea of 'merging with their makers' in a very literal sense might be driving their efforts. Think of it as the religious stem-cell arguments in reverse :)

The basic problem is that something indistinguishable from a human by the tests Baltar came up with before his 'Cylon detector' can't be anything but pretty much human. [...] The technobabble around Baltar's Cylon detector is loony. If the human-looking Cylons are pretty much geneticly engineered humans (and if they're interfertile with humans, they have to be), then there may be telltale genetic markers that indicate Cylon bioengineering, but there's not going to be anything unusually about the underlying molecular structure.
My take on this is the cylons have pushed the limits on what 'genetically engineered' means. When we do it today, we're only working with existing information in a particular genome, manipulating existing characteristics to express themselves (or not), or, in some cases, simply splicing characteristics from another source to existing genes (like bioluminessence.)

We cannot, however, add totally new genes or genetic material designed from scratch. I think the cylons can, either by replacing the 'junk' DNA the human genome is full of, or by making the DNA strands of genes much more densely packed. This would have a different molecular structure. However, through a conventional microscope it could be made to still appear contained in the standard number of human chromosomes. Only rigorous genetic profiling (which is all the 'cylon detector' appears to be) would reveal the differences.

Think of it this way: in the computer world, you can have hardware system A which can run software which allows it to function as if the hardware system B. B is a virtual machine, by which A can now run software programs designed for B. So the cylon copies are running a human 'virtual machine' on top of their genome, which gives all the outward appearances of a human (from blood to interfertility with real humans.) The base machine (genome), however, contains all the 'extra-human' abilities - superior strength, 'uploading' of their consciousness to other copies at death, glowing spinal columns during sex...

However, should the cylon models intrabreed, it would be like system A trying to run another copy of system A, but through system B. Possible, but usually system B is less complex than A, so it is not capable of running a copy of A. A, however, is much more likely to be able to run another copy of B (a hybrid baby.) This is probably the approach the cylons are taking.

It likely takes a great deal of effort to design these base genomes plus the human gene expressions they are emulating, thus the limited number of models we see... The human genome being emulated might have to be very specific, also, and need to come from an actual human sample. This might be another reason behind the 'farms'. I also think Starbuck may be one of those with suitable characteristics, and we may be seeing a few copies of her as 'Model 13' (the model for Kobol?)

If you want to create a human-Cylon hybrid, and you've got highly advanced biotech, can't you just use human sperm or ova from one of the millions of dead people around instead of creating an elaborate set-up?
Again, I think the Cylons are letting the tenets of their belief system guide their efforts, and the more direct approach you suggest may not satisfy the metaphysical goal behind it all. (Doesn't matter if the naturally conceived hybrids are actually embued with a 'soul'; what matters is if the cylons believe they are.) They could do what you're suggesting, they just don't want to.
 
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dravot said:
Galactica Boomer did when she put the nuke on the Basestar at the end of S1

It's funny, but I assumed there was some sort of atmosphere in there. In fact, since they were TALKING, didn't there have to be? That, and there was a sticky, warm floor surface that her feet kind of stuck to? Certainly was the cold vacuum of space there.
 

WizarDru said:
It's funny, but I assumed there was some sort of atmosphere in there. In fact, since they were TALKING, didn't there have to be? That, and there was a sticky, warm floor surface that her feet kind of stuck to? Certainly was the cold vacuum of space there.
No doubt. There was an implication of the need for a helmet though, and Boomer's navigator definitely thought it was odd that Boomer climbed back in sans helmet.
 

Ok, perhaps this is a dumb question but did I miss something somewhere along the line that would have introduced the woman (Sha-Shawn?) that Starbuck found hooked up to all the machines? Starbuck obviously knew her but I don't remember seeing her before. Was she part of the resistance or are we supposed to believe that Starbuck just stumbled across someone she knew from before the war?

I must admit I'm curious about why Starbuck is "Special" to the Cylons. Also about what they did while she was "under".

Next episode is going to be interesting as they get back to the fleet.
 

MaxKaladin said:
Ok, perhaps this is a dumb question but did I miss something somewhere along the line that would have introduced the woman (Sha-Shawn?) that Starbuck found hooked up to all the machines? Starbuck obviously knew her but I don't remember seeing her before. Was she part of the resistance or are we supposed to believe that Starbuck just stumbled across someone she knew from before the war?
When Starbuck and Helo first met the resistance group, she was holding a gun on either Starbuck or Helo (can't remember exactly who was aiming at who) and to me looked like she really wanted to pull the trigger. My guess is that there is a deleted scene or two showing her and Starbuck coming to respect one another.
 

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