Changeover Poll

Changeover Poll

  • Complete Changeover: All 4E played now, no earlier editions of D&D

    Votes: 193 32.2%
  • Largely over: Mostly 4E played now, some earlier edition play

    Votes: 56 9.3%
  • Half over: Half 4E played now, half earlier edition play

    Votes: 32 5.3%
  • Partial Changeover: Some 4E played now, mostly earlier edition play

    Votes: 18 3.0%
  • Slight Changeover: A little 4E played now, mostly earlier edition play

    Votes: 21 3.5%
  • No Change: Tried 4E, went back to earlier edition play

    Votes: 114 19.0%
  • No Change: Never tried 4E, all earlier edition play

    Votes: 165 27.5%

And if I had ever claimed that *YOU* had said that, then your point would be relevant.

If you agree with me that both polls are some degree of bad news then good.
If you disagree then you are now arguing on a dishonest basis.
It makes no difference to the point which is the case.

You may dispute the validity of the polls at all but:
A) that still doesn't change my point that the one being portrayed as better is still pretty bad so the defensive arguments themselves are telling in regard to general perception of even the pro-4e side. My whole point was about how the pro-4e side perceives the results and what that says of their expectations, it has nothing to do with the quantifiable precision of the data.

And

B) There is no data to dispute that the polls are in the right ballpark. And there are a whole lot of people whose meatspace experiences fit close enough with the results to find them a reasonable barometer.

So basically it comes down to people who like 4e feeling there's more going on than self-selected internet polls can account for, and those who don't like 4e finding any way possible to say HA-HA!

Wow, what a surprise. And it's been going on for over thirty pages...
 

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So basically it comes down to people who like 4e feeling there's more going on than self-selected internet polls can account for, and those who don't like 4e finding any way possible to say HA-HA!

Wow, what a surprise. And it's been going on for over thirty pages...
Hmm, pretty much absolutely no. Hell, that even fails to account for the very point that you replied to.

But if that is what you get out of it then so be it.
 

Eh, I can see both PoV... It's sort of like water and ice. I mean you can have your ice cube and it is ice... or you can have your water/melted ice. Sorta like you can have your magazines...Paper, physical, collectible... and you can have your PDF's... which lack some of the fundamental characteristics of a paper magazine, but have new characteristics.

I think your example is off.

What you're saying is like someone saying ice is no longer H2O because they wanted a liquid. Ice and water are the same substance, just in diferent states. Same is true with dragon/dungeon.

They are still the same substance (a collection of articles, and ideas for use in your D&D game.) They just currently exist in a state some do not prefer.

I for one prefer it greatly. I wouldn't object if they were able to do both a print and digital version at the same time... But if it's one or the other- digital all the way.
 

Well, by definition, a magazine doesn't have to be printed to be a magazine. Just check any dictionary and you will see. But I understand that isn't your point. Yours is one of physical portability. But just because you don't like the medium, doesn't make it less of a magazine.

Hi there; first off, I will quite willingly concede that since it is still technically a published periodical it is also still a magazine. However, (if you'll permit me to indulge in hyperbole of the highest {lowest?} order) this would also be the case if it were scripted in dog faeces on scrolls of human skin.....which would also lose me as a customer in as equally efficacious a manner as switching to PDFs ;)

And this is too bad, because it really has been great (if you like 4e). Dungeon and Dragon have been chock full of great articles and the adventures are good and getting better. There are some so-so adventures and some that don't float my boat, but that was the case with the print mag as well.

Well, since I don't play using 4E (a little white lie; I do in fact play in a 4E game {whether I merely tolerate it because of the presence of friends is inconsequential I suppose}, but since I VASTLY prefer to DM rather than play, and the game which I run is a 3.5/Pathfinder blend, I still think of myself as a non-convert) then a subscription holds even less appeal than if I were to merely take the electronic nature of the beast into consideration.

Note that while it was free in the early days of electronic only (prior to the 4E switch over) should it have been pay-only while it was 3.5, I still wouldn't have subscribed due to my abhorence of online "publications", so believe me when I say that the primary objection is not edition but medium.


Have you tried printing it out? I like to print out just the articles I want to read and sit at my sofa and prep for my games (or sit on the car and just read). And when I DM my game, I use a laptop, so I have that option as well.

As someone else has pointed out, that merely adds a time, cost and yes, even a sensory penalty to me. Time because a 90 odd page document (and I don't know if that is in fact the actual page count.....someone with a subscription will have to drop in and let me know the true page count these days) takes a while to print, cost because to print it with a decent enough quality to be a good read would require a fair amount of ink (unless I decide that somehow a laserjet printer is a swell addition to the budget, right up there with diapers and wipes.....I'm sure I can justify that to the better half :p) every month, and sensory because flipping through some loose pages (and if I get them bound that's even more time/expense) is nowhere even in the ballpark as "pleasurable" as flipping through a book or magazine that is professionally bound......for some reason it just doesn't have the same feel....I can't explain why that is the case, it just is.....it feels....I dunno, cheap and inconsequential, something ephemeral that I'm going to toss in the recycling bin within a few minutes of reading it as if it had no real value beyond the immediate....and it sure wouldn't have the same feel leafing through some loose pages while on the john, you know?

Hell, I honestly can't put into words why I prefer a real book/magazine to something I just printed out myself (although I will clearly grant you that it's still better than a bloody PDF!), but maybe that's just it....an awful lot of this aversion is gut level, instinctual stuff, and it may not make any logical sense (the words are still the same, arent' they?!) but that is still the case.

Anyhoo, the original poster has stated that they would prefer the topic to be forked, so if anyone wants to continue the print versus PDF discussion, then by all means please fork it as a courtesy to E_o_N (although I'm not sure what could be gained, due to the emotional rather than logical nature of the issue.....other than perhaps a new poll of who prefers print versus PDF).

Cheers,
Colin
 

I think your example is off.

What you're saying is like someone saying ice is no longer H2O because they wanted a liquid. Ice and water are the same substance, just in diferent states. Same is true with dragon/dungeon.

They are still the same substance (a collection of articles, and ideas for use in your D&D game.) They just currently exist in a state some do not prefer.

I for one prefer it greatly. I wouldn't object if they were able to do both a print and digital version at the same time... But if it's one or the other- digital all the way.

No it's not like someone saying ice is no longer H2O because they wanted a liquid. Dragon and Dungeon are not composed of the same columns, features, cartoons, etc. that they were so it is disingenuous to make it seem like they have a known composition (except in the broadest of senses) and then claim the only change has been from paper to electronic. In fact I would go further and comment that some of the internal changes (no letters, no advertisements, etc.) have arisen because of the change in format, whether you like them or not.

I mean according to your definition of what Dragon and Dungeon are "a collection of articles, and ideas for use in your D&D game." They could have created a blog with a single poster writing his house rules on D&D each month and it would be the same Dungeon and Dragon magazines as before. That's why your definition is so broad as to be meaningless.
 

I merely made the suggestion to protect the thread. The Admins will have a problem with us, if the thread is sufficiently side-tracked.
The issue of Dragon Magazine, could do that. It is a full issue by itself. It deserves it's own thread (or many threads.) It is a whole, vast topic unto itself, and this thread could not contain the vast amount of discussion that could go on about our Flagship Magazine.
 


No it's not like someone saying ice is no longer H2O because they wanted a liquid. Dragon and Dungeon are not composed of the same columns, features, cartoons, etc. that they were so it is disingenuous to make it seem like they have a known composition (except in the broadest of senses) and then claim the only change has been from paper to electronic. In fact I would go further and comment that some of the internal changes (no letters, no advertisements, etc.) have arisen because of the change in format, whether you like them or not.

Dragon and Dungeon have ALWAYS had a shifting lineup of features. I've been following (un)reason's excellent read-through of Dragon, and the magazine has constantly had changes. Holding up the end of the print run of Dragon and saying "It doesn't have these exact features" isn't fair. Dragon still has new rules, focus articles about different classes, races, and monsters, articles about locations, etc.

I'll not get into the PDF/dead tree debate.
 

No it's not like someone saying ice is no longer H2O because they wanted a liquid. Dragon and Dungeon are not composed of the same columns, features, cartoons, etc. that they were so it is disingenuous to make it seem like they have a known composition (except in the broadest of senses) and then claim the only change has been from paper to electronic. In fact I would go further and comment that some of the internal changes (no letters, no advertisements, etc.) have arisen because of the change in format, whether you like them or not.

Sure, there were more changes then the biggest change (going from physical to digital) but the layout is for the most part the same. We also have a lot of the same articles and writers that were in the magazine for years.

If changes to some articles or comics are enough to make it no longer dragon./dungeon then when Paizo took over it was no longer dragon or dungeon. Hell then the magazine ended many times durring it's lifespan!

I mean according to your definition of what Dragon and Dungeon are "a collection of articles, and ideas for use in your D&D game." They could have created a blog with a single poster writing his house rules on D&D each month and it would be the same Dungeon and Dragon magazines as before. That's why your definition is so broad as to be meaningless.

Yeah my basic definition probably was a bit broad. Fine.

Sheesh do we really need to go through this? Sure you can call anything meaningless if you choose to ignore what the person is saying!

At heart the magazine seeks to do the same thing the paper format did. You don't like the format maybe but that doesn't change what the basic idea of the magazine is.

I have no issue with someone saying: This isn't what I want out of dragon/dungeon. It needs to be in paper for me to purchase it.

Fine, that's your choice.

I have issue with someone saying: This is no longer dragon/dungeon because it's not in paper format.

That is akin to someone saying this is no longer H20 because it's not in solid form.
 

Dragon and Dungeon have ALWAYS had a shifting lineup of features. I've been following (un)reason's excellent read-through of Dragon, and the magazine has constantly had changes. Holding up the end of the print run of Dragon and saying "It doesn't have these exact features" isn't fair. Dragon still has new rules, focus articles about different classes, races, and monsters, articles about locations, etc.

I'll not get into the PDF/dead tree debate.

And thus you've explained exactly why what is a "defining characteristic" of the magazines is so subjective (or has to be so broadly defined) that it becomes pointless, and why it is erroneous for another to try and tell someone what is or isn't a defining characteristic of Dragon or Dungeon for them. I'm through with this subject as it really is sidetracking the thread and I don't want to do that.
 

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