D&D 5E D&D Should Have Less HP Bloat

[tetrasodium]

yeah, it’s not perfect and the extra die role and remembering where you hit can be cumbersome, but it does avoid combat being a drudge

A lower hit rate and lower hp , flat dr rather than 50%resist & so on worked better ime. There was a bit of rock paper scissors going on where a caster could end a fight bu targeting saves reliably but not very often due to spell slot consumption and such while anti caster monsters with spell resistance were usually not too bad for noncasters. There was the occasional exception that was hell to both like te tarrasque but I don't think they were common

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I agree. In my homebrew TTRPG, we are playtesting a new system from the one we started with. In it, you’ve got a Health Score which is a damage threshold, and a Trauma track. If damage exceeds your Health, you take a Trauma. If you take the same kind of Trauma again, it upgrades to Major, then Severe, Trauma, and then knocks you out of the fight. You can also get knocked out of the fight by massive damage skipping the track.

But neither health nor damage scale much. Health is 10+Fortitude (which is from 1-6, but starts no higher than 4, and you can only have 2 attributes as high as 4, so more likely 3). You gain 1 Attribute Point per level*, and that’s it. If you spend AP on Fortitude, you can get as high as 16, from a min of 11.

The older/current system was more HP, and you began with 10+Fortitude HP, and also doesn’t scale much.

Damage also doesn’t scale much. What does scale is how often you can spend Attribute Points to use special abilities, upgrade success, and exert some control over the scene with stuff like declaring that you planned for what is happening and spending from Wits to have a tool you need or have an ally show up.

*level is a feature that helps track appropriate challenge, and keep character math straight. Every 50 character points spent, you gain a level. All a level does is give you 1 Attribute Point, and 1 Skill Rank, to spend. You also gain skill ranks alongside character points, but that will probably get simplified soon.

 

[BigZebra]

It is not just about the HP bloat, it is also something inherent in the 5e's encounter design. It is not very inspiring compared to 4e honestly. I know as a DM that is also "our job", but it would be nice if the adventures also covered this a bit more. In that regards I find 4e encounters much more interesting concerning tactics and terrain.
Yes, in the beginning the 4e monsters had too much HP as well, and too low damage output, but with the new monster design in the autumn of 4e's life they really hit something great. Unfortunately it was too late.
5e could learn a lot from 4e. A bit sad that WotC are doing everything they can to distance themselves from 4e.

 

[Argyle King]

If your NPCs are “big bags of hps that don’t do anything”….. that’s not a game design issue.

True. Though, I find that the same issues I see now in 5E do not appear to be occurring (or occurring as much) in other games, systems, and editions I play.

(Aside from D&D 5E, I also regularly play FFG Star Wars and GURPS 4th Edition.)

In a current 5E game (where I'm a player,) I am highly enjoying the story; imo the DM is really good; and I'm invested in what is going on, but then combat seems to slow things down. It's not an issue of players taking too long or unfamiliarity with the rules. We're currently at level 12.

 

[Argyle King]

It is not just about the HP bloat, it is also something inherent in the 5e's encounter design. It is not very inspiring compared to 4e honestly. I know as a DM that is also "our job", but it would be nice if the adventures also covered this a bit more. In that regards I find 4e encounters much more interesting concerning tactics and terrain.
Yes, in the beginning the 4e monsters had too much HP as well, and too low damage output, but with the new monster design in the autumn of 4e's life they really hit something great. Unfortunately it was too late.
5e could learn a lot from 4e. A bit sad that WotC are doing everything they can to distance themselves from 4e.

At one point in time, I had started to rewrite The monster building and encounter design tables (and a few other things) of 4E, to "fix" some things related to this 5E thread.

Honestly, there are/were a lot of things about 4E which bugged me, but there were also aspects of it that I felt were good. I understand why 5E is built how it is, but there are areas of 5E's design that I feel could have gone in a better direction. Even from the playtest to now, things feel different in play.

 

[MNblockhead]

Man, my players do so much DPR that I don't find it much of an issues.

My problem is dealing with all the spells and special abilities at higher levels. It can be fun, but it gets slow and tactical.

My current campaign is on the gonzo kitchen-sink side of the D&D spectrum.

Once PCs are past 10th level and fighting monsters that can challenge them at that level, in a magic-item heavy game, combat gets complicated. Hit points are the least of my worries when their is banishment, cubes of force, horns of valhalla, and tones of areas of effect spells to contend with.

 

[Argyle King]

Off topic, but related to HP...

I also think that resistance should be broken down into: No Resistance (full damage), Minor Resistance (-25%), Resistance (-50%, like now), Greater Resistance (-75%), and Immunity (-100%).

I think that would allow for more of a progression in monster design. There could also be items and abilities which treat Resistance as one level lower.

This is related to HP because it's a method of being able to make a creature tougher without needing to rely so heavily on one aspect (HP). Also, having more steps could allow for a more gradual progression than what is used now.

This change, while small, touches many other aspects of the game. Spells, weapons, and abilities which interact with resistance and immunity could have more steps of progression as well.

I think this is related to HP because some of the game's overall progression could be broken down into smaller steps -with the goal being to broaden the "sweet spot" of play.

 

[the Jester]

Are you familiar with E6? It might serve you well. Basically, characters top out at 6th level, making high-level encounters always a major threat.

 

[tetrasodium]

Off topic, but related to HP...

I also think that resistance should be broken down into: No Resistance (full damage), Minor Resistance (-25%), Resistance (-50%, like now), Greater Resistance (-75%), and Immunity (-100%).

I think that would allow for more of a progression in monster design. There could also be items and abilities which treat Resistance as one level lower.

This is related to HP because it's a method of being able to make a creature tougher without needing to rely so heavily on one aspect (HP). Also, having more steps could allow for a more gradual progression than what is used now.

This change, while small, touches many other aspects of the game. Spells, weapons, and abilities which interact with resistance and immunity could have more steps of progression as well.

I think this is related to HP because some of the game's overall progression could be broken down into smaller steps -with the goal being to broaden the "sweet spot" of play.

flat values should exist too. Some classes operate with lots of smaller attacks, others with fewer larger attacks. Exclusively using a percentage rather than flat values puts the advantage on the death by a thousand cuts who get to ply the odds & are less likely to miss all of those attacks than a character who has it all on the line with one attack.

The fact that equipment modifiers tend to multiply across each attack but only apply once when there is one big attack amplifies the effect of that slanted stacking of benefits by ensuring the many attack character will never encounter a situation where they are at a disadvantage to the all or nothing one big strike character.

 

[AmerginLiath]

Part of the issue is always fighting to 0 HP, as if all battles are of necessity to the death. Instead, add in morale rolls as circumstances change in the battle and (additionally) as HPs drop to particular levels (looking at the optional Wisdom save rules in the DMG, one could pretty easily kitbash a rising DC as %HP falls). Having the last third of a group of goblins surrender or the ogre down to low HP turn to flee changes the dynamic of the encounter — what do the characters do now, do they capture or tie up or release the goblins, do they pursue the bleeding ogre or let him go? HP can be as much as measure of how to alter the conditions of the encounter as a metric to knock down towards one static win condition.