D&D 5E Do I get sneak attack if I throw a Rapier or whack someone with my heavy crossbow

[Maxperson]

The rapier doesn't have the "thrown" property, which means you can't throw it. You can throw a long pointy piece of metal that you have in your hand, but if you do that it is no longer a rapier. It is an improvised thrown weapon, the same as a rock. Improvised thrown weapons do not have the belong to the ranged group or have the finesse property so you can't sneak attack with them.

Well, you CAN throw it. It would be silly to think otherwise. If you can lift it, you can throw it. The part about it being in improvised weapon makes sense, but is not RAW.

RAW says that improvised weapons rules come into play when you don't have your weapons. "Sometimes characters don't have their weapons and have to attack with whatever is at hand."

A rapier is his weapon, so the improvised weapons rules don't apply unless the DM rules that they do. If we go by your interpretation of the rules, having the finesse property means that if you throw the rapier, it would get sneak attack.

Now, in my game I wouldn't allow it, either, but by the rules as written, it wouldn't become an improvised weapon.

 

[Maxperson]

If you are throwing a melee weapon, yes the weapon needs both the thrown and finesse properties to qualify for sneak attack. Because thrown by itself does not qualify. See my response to Umbran above.

You're making that up, though. Nothing in RAW says that it has to have both. That daggers have both is not proof that the specific Rogue rule that it only needs one or the other is incorrect.

 

[Umbran]

Disagree. If you include “ranged attack” rather than “ranged weapon” as part of the criteria for sneak attack, by that logic any thrown weapon, including improvised ones, would get sneak attack.

Please see the other recent thread, in which French onion soup technically qualifies as a sandwich...

There is a point, folks, where one has to use some sense, rather than adhere to strict definitions that we are explicitly told were written more as natural language.

 

[Umbran]

RAW says that improvised weapons rules come into play when you don't have your weapons. "Sometimes characters don't have their weapons and have to attack with whatever is at hand."

If you want to be super-strict, by that logic, if I have a longsword to hand, but pick up a flagon and kosh someone with it, that flagon doesn't count as an improvised weapon because I have my regular weapon to hand. I'm just choosing not to use it.

Explanations of typical cases should not be read as comprehensive definitions. If the result is nonsense, the reading is nonsense.

 

[Charlaquin]

Well, you CAN throw it. It would be silly to think otherwise. If you can lift it, you can throw it. The part about it being in improvised weapon makes sense, but is not RAW.

RAW says that improvised weapons rules come into play when you don't have your weapons. "Sometimes characters don't have their weapons and have to attack with whatever is at hand."

A rapier is his weapon, so the improvised weapons rules don't apply unless the DM rules that they do. If we go by your interpretation of the rules, having the finesse property means that if you throw the rapier, it would get sneak attack.

Now, in my game I wouldn't allow it, either, but by the rules as written, it wouldn't become an improvised weapon.

The improvised weapons rules literally say that if you throw a weapon that lacks the thrown property, it counts as an improvised weapon...

 

[Charlaquin]

You're making that up, though. Nothing in RAW says that it has to have both. That daggers have both is not proof that the specific Rogue rule that it only needs one or the other is incorrect.

It doesn’t need to have both. To qualify for sneak attack a weapon must either

a.) be a ranged weapon
or
b.) have the Finesse property.

A dagger meets b but not a. It also has the thrown property, which means you don’t treat it as an improvised weapon if you throw it.

A rapier also meets b but not a. It does not have the thrown property, which means you do have to treat it as an improvised weapon if you throw it.

An improvised weapon (such as a thrown rapier) does not meet a or b.

 

[Maxperson]

If you want to be super-strict, by that logic, if I have a longsword to hand, but pick up a flagon and kosh someone with it, that flagon doesn't count as an improvised weapon because I have my regular weapon to hand. I'm just choosing not to use it.

I know. I'm more pointing out the absurdity of following RAW to the nth degree. I wouldn't give a thrown rapier sneak attack, but would give it to handaxes.

 

[Maxperson]

The improvised weapons rules literally say that if you throw a weapon that lacks the thrown property, it counts as an improvised weapon...

That's not exactly what it says. It says that if you throw a melee weapon that lacks the thrown property, it does 1d4 damage. At no point, though, does it say that it loses finesse. Again, this is what comes of blindly following RAW. Sometimes you just have to make a ruling that makes sense, since the rules don't cover every situation well.

 

[Maxperson]

It doesn’t need to have both. To qualify for sneak attack a weapon must either

a.) be a ranged weapon
or
b.) have the Finesse property.

A dagger meets b but not a. It also has the thrown property, which means you don’t treat it as an improvised weapon if you throw it.

A rapier also meets b but not a. It does not have the thrown property, which means you do have to treat it as an improvised weapon if you throw it.

An improvised weapon (such as a thrown rapier) does not meet a or b.

Nowhere in the improvised weapon rules does it say that properties are lost. A thrown rapier retains the finesse property.

 

[Umbran]

I know. I'm more pointing out the absurdity of following RAW to the nth degree. I wouldn't give a thrown rapier sneak attack, but would give it to handaxes.

That is fair. Just consider my post to be an amplification of the point.