D&D 5E How on earth is this balanced?! Twilight cleric, more in-play evidence


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Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
I have an other argument that "proves" this is not balanced, at all.

A lot of class abilities duplicate feats or spells - warlocks, for example, get fiendish resilience, which gives false life, a first level spell, at will. It gives you 1d4+4 temp hp.

I think we can agree that false life is a bit weak. When you upcast it, you gain 5 more temp hp... but I think one could agree that an "alternate" version would cast it on a number of people instead.

So the twiligh's aura is basically casting a level 4 (depending on how many party members there are) spell every round, without concentration, and only for a single action, for a minute.
 

Aelryinth

Explorer
I have an other argument that "proves" this is not balanced, at all.

A lot of class abilities duplicate feats or spells - warlocks, for example, get fiendish resilience, which gives false life, a first level spell, at will. It gives you 1d4+4 temp hp.

I think we can agree that false life is a bit weak. When you upcast it, you gain 5 more temp hp... but I think one could agree that an "alternate" version would cast it on a number of people instead.

So the twiligh's aura is basically casting a level 4 (depending on how many party members there are) spell every round, without concentration, and only for a single action, for a minute.
Another way of saying this is that the spell is either giving Fast Healing 10+ for a minute, OR is Casting Mass Cure Light Wounds on everyone for a minute.
Sure, it's wasted if nobody attacks. The point is, it is damage ablation, and is just as useful as actual healing during a fight. Even if you want to argue it is only half as useful as actual healing... that's still a repeated 4th level spell cast at least 5 times over the course of a minute.
It is WAY OP for the level the character gets it at, compared to other similar abilities.
 

Redwizard007

Adventurer
Another way of saying this is that the spell is either giving Fast Healing 10+ for a minute, OR is Casting Mass Cure Light Wounds on everyone for a minute.
Sure, it's wasted if nobody attacks. The point is, it is damage ablation, and is just as useful as actual healing during a fight. Even if you want to argue it is only half as useful as actual healing... that's still a repeated 4th level spell cast at least 5 times over the course of a minute.
It is WAY OP for the level the character gets it at, compared to other similar abilities.

In a vacuum you are perfectly correct. In my games, both as a player and as a DM, we see a lot of focused fire. Whatever the opponents consider the biggest threat takes far more attacks than everyone else. Specific situations may change that, but it seems pretty consistent. In those situations the Twilight Cleric is FAR more balanced. It's still an OP ability compared to other cleric subclasses, but not nearly the ban-worthy rant-inspiring ability that I see talked about on the internet.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
In a vacuum you are perfectly correct. In my games, both as a player and as a DM, we see a lot of focused fire. Whatever the opponents consider the biggest threat takes far more attacks than everyone else. Specific situations may change that, but it seems pretty consistent. In those situations the Twilight Cleric is FAR more balanced. It's still an OP ability compared to other cleric subclasses, but not nearly the ban-worthy rant-inspiring ability that I see talked about on the internet.

Stating smart enemies will take out the OP cleric first doesn't in any way change the fact that the subclass is OP. Frankly saying that smart enemies will focus fire on the Cleric because they see him as clearly the biggest threat confirms the point.
 


Northern Phoenix

Adventurer
That's not what he means - it's that Twilight is less effective at damage-mitigation-per-round if only one PC - any single PC - is taking damage each round.

That's not exactly a weakness when Twilight Cleric can also attack and heal itself at the same time while maintaining Twilight Sanctuary while also having top-tier defenses.

Oh, and past level 6 they can do all that with concentration-less Flight, because of course.
 
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Mort

Legend
Supporter
That's not what he means - it's that Twilight is less effective at damage-mitigation-per-round if only one PC - any single PC - is taking damage each round.

Not sure that's what he said: but

1. 2d6 extra HP per round is decent damage mitigation;

2. Since the aura is not concentration, the twilight cleric gets that plus, say, aura of vitality (which they are one of the few clerics to get) so the person getting hit essentially getso 4d6 damage mitigation per round. And the cleric can still cast!

In other words, the twilight cleric is as good or better at mitigation then most other subclasses (I'd say the peace cleric can be better, if the party is seriously on top of it AND really knows what their doing) .
 
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Redwizard007

Adventurer
Not sure that's what he said: but

1. 2d6 extra HP per round is decent damage mitigation;

2. Since the aura is not concentration, the twilight cleric gets that plus, say, aura of vitality (which they are one of the few clerics to get) so the person getting hit essentially getso 4d6 damage mitigation per round. And the cleric can still cast!

In other words, the twilight cleric is as good or better at mitigation then most other subclasses (I'd say the peace cleric can be better, if the party is seriously on top of it AND really knows what their doing) .

Savage Wombat has it right, or my perspective anyway. The cleric has rarely been the focused on target. For a lot of combat it was the half-giant barbarian. Other times the back row of casters. The damage mitigation was solid but not encounter breaking. Where things got wacky was when enemies tried to man up on the PCs. Then it was like they weren't even doing damage. Thankfully, that's rare in my games.

I still agree that the Twilight domain is a little over the top, but its no worse than dealing with Aarakocra, Bladesingers, Gloomstalkers, Aberrant Minds or Eloquence bards. They all have the potential to screw up modules pretty easily but aren't that bad if the DM is riffing something homebrewed that let's them adjust to the PCs. Having said all that, errata or house rules to nerf Twilight clerics a bit would be a solid change that I could easily get behind and several options I've seen in these threads would make perfect sense.
 

Aelryinth

Explorer
For the level it gets the ability at, it's OP when compared against other similar abilities. That's all we are saying. At higher levels, sure, it's not a stand out. But compared to everything else out there in a vacuum, it's not balanced.
Having to deliberately take steps to neutralize a basic ability like this is generally a warning sign that it's OP and affects entire encounter planning all by itself.
 

Savage Wombat

Adventurer
In other words, the twilight cleric is as good or better at mitigation then most other subclasses (I'd say the peace cleric can be better, if the party is seriously on top of it AND really knows what their doing) .

True. I'm just curious whether the designers made a balance mistake, or whether they felt that a section of the player base was unhappy with the amount of damage mitigation available to clerics. But we never get much in the way of design theory explanations, it seems.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Next campaign probably not gonna allow Peace or Twilight clerics. There's no gods as such the clerics just get their powers by existing.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
Just tried a twilight cleric (first two adventures of the Rime of the Frost Maiden Adventurers League) so going to necro this thread.

Opinion, in actual play, the twilight cleric is amazing.

At first level :

The 300' darkvision is very useful. It is longer than any other ability. Even more useful, being able to share it. Completely solved the issue that 1 person in the party didn't have darkvision (sure sharing is only 1 hour at a time but had it when it counted).

Having (or granting) advantage on initiative checks is nice but wasn't a big factor in our party - could be in others.

The domain spells (sleep and Fairie Fire). Only got to use sleep, but it was extremely useful. Turned two annoying encounters into easy mop ups.

The big one : twilight sanctuary. Once I figured out when to optimally use it (when legendary monsters appeared) this ability was completely OP. EVERYONE in the party benefited from an average of 5 temp HP per round (sure they don't stack but they replenish) and that was just more than the legendary monsters could eat through, even those that were not alone. Made the fights A LOT easier. We entered the fight against THE legendary final big bad with everyone out of all spells (except cantrips) but having been allowed a short rest. Twilight Sanctuary ensured the fight still wasn't that deadly. Overall, it was huge, and this was only second level. Will see how levels 3-4 go over the weekend.
 

Will Robie

First Post
My DM ruled that the Twilight Cleric is not OP as you guys think. The Temp hit points can't be stacked (as per Temporary Point Rules in the DM's book) and that each round that the temp points are given the character has the choice to either take the new points or keep the old ones. This makes the thing worthless unless your party is getting massacred on the battle field. I think his ruling sucks. I wish Jeremy Crawford would weigh on this issue.
 

Burnside

Space Jam Confirmed
Supporter
My DM ruled that the Twilight Cleric is not OP as you guys think. The Temp hit points can't be stacked (as per Temporary Point Rules in the DM's book) and that each round that the temp points are given the character has the choice to either take the new points or keep the old ones. This makes the thing worthless unless your party is getting massacred on the battle field. I think his ruling sucks. I wish Jeremy Crawford would weigh on this issue.

Your DM is running it absolutely correctly. Temp hit points don't stack; Crawford doesn't need to weigh in on that.
 

My DM ruled that the Twilight Cleric is not OP as you guys think. The Temp hit points can't be stacked (as per Temporary Point Rules in the DM's book) and that each round that the temp points are given the character has the choice to either take the new points or keep the old ones. This makes the thing worthless unless your party is getting massacred on the battle field. I think his ruling sucks. I wish Jeremy Crawford would weigh on this issue.
This is how it works. It's still OP though. Your characters presumably take damage, or if they don't, you'd be easily winning anyway.
 

Redwizard007

Adventurer
My DM ruled that the Twilight Cleric is not OP as you guys think. The Temp hit points can't be stacked (as per Temporary Point Rules in the DM's book) and that each round that the temp points are given the character has the choice to either take the new points or keep the old ones. This makes the thing worthless unless your party is getting massacred on the battle field. I think his ruling sucks. I wish Jeremy Crawford would weigh on this issue.
That's not a ruling. It's exactly the way the ability is written. RAW and RAI in perfect sync. The only way this can be considered OP is if you have a ton of minionmancy going on or the DM spreads out damage instead of attacking intelligently.
 

TwoSix

Unserious gamer
My DM ruled that the Twilight Cleric is not OP as you guys think. The Temp hit points can't be stacked (as per Temporary Point Rules in the DM's book) and that each round that the temp points are given the character has the choice to either take the new points or keep the old ones. This makes the thing worthless unless your party is getting massacred on the battle field. I think his ruling sucks. I wish Jeremy Crawford would weigh on this issue.
I'm trying to imagine a game where getting 1d6+level temp hit point each round isn't useful. Like, how the heck do your fights go?
 

Cruentus

Adventurer
That's not a ruling. It's exactly the way the ability is written. RAW and RAI in perfect sync. The only way this can be considered OP is if you have a ton of minionmancy going on or the DM spreads out damage instead of attacking intelligently.
But you have to be careful, attacking intelligently is a fine line from "punishing a character for using their abilities as written" :rolleyes:

My NPCs would need a good reason to focus fire on one PC, unless it was obvious they were the source of an effect. If the whole party has a "glow" or whatever from the TS, and there are several who cast spells, how can the NPC's really know who cast it and when? Its a tough line.

I had a Twilight Cleric in my game, and it was very powerful, but he moved away from using that ability around 4-6th level. No idea why. Maybe he forgot since he had MC'd into Sorcerer...
 

Redwizard007

Adventurer
But you have to be careful, attacking intelligently is a fine line from "punishing a character for using their abilities as written" :rolleyes:

My NPCs would need a good reason to focus fire on one PC, unless it was obvious they were the source of an effect. If the whole party has a "glow" or whatever from the TS, and there are several who cast spells, how can the NPC's really know who cast it and when? Its a tough line.

I had a Twilight Cleric in my game, and it was very powerful, but he moved away from using that ability around 4-6th level. No idea why. Maybe he forgot since he had MC'd into Sorcerer...
Poor word choice. That's on me.

What I meant was, attacking in a way that made sense for the monster. Beasts will attack a single foe until it is dead. Archers will focus fire. Wizards will debuff instead dropping AOE damage. Dragons will split the party and pick on one PC at a time. Spreading damage around is for suckers.
 
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