D&D 5E How on earth is this balanced?! Twilight cleric, more in-play evidence

[Neonchameleon]

No, CR is an indicator of relative difficulty.

Something which only makes any sense at all when the tools are balanced. What's difficult for BMX Bandit may not be for Angel Summoner.

Then don't. No one is forcing you to by WotC products!

They've mostly been pretty good since they left 3.5 in the rear view mirror. This is a rare lapse.

 

[Neonchameleon]

No there aren't. It says nothing to indicate equivalence - indeed, the existence of social and skill options makes it quite clear that they are not "balanced", if by "balanced" you mean "equally good at fighting".

And if by "balanced" you mean "equally good at lockpicking" they aren't balanced either.

The design goal was to balance across the three pillars. (Social, exploration, combat)

It's only a flaw if it claims to be one thing then it turns out not to be. Since on one at WotC has ever made the claim that D&D was balanced, a lack of balance is not a flaw.

By the same token since no one claimed that they had a frictionless environment in a car not having any oil in it for lubrication wouldn't be a flaw. Oh wait.

No one thinks you can get perfect balance. Just as a frictionless environment isn't possible. That's no reason not to at least get reasonably close. And as mentioned CR is there with an implicit claim of balance.

 

[Mort]

Something which only makes any sense at all when the tools are balanced. What's difficult for BMX Bandit may not be for Angel Summoner.

They've mostly been pretty good since they left 3.5 in the rear view mirror. This is a rare lapse.

You know what would be fun, though probably way too time consuming? A controlled experiment.

Take 2 groups of gamers with as roughly close a "skill level" as you can get.

Pick an adventure (5e White Plume Mountain, being 8th level fits the bill) - it should be a published adventure expressly so that the DM DOES NOT adjust to the power level of the PCs.

Assign the 1st group the following 8th level pregens:
8th level twilight cleric
8th level BM polearm master/GWM fighter
8th level diviner wizard
8th level arcane trickster rogue

Assign the 2nd group:
8th level war cleric
8th level purple dragon knight fighter
8th level transmuter wizard
8th level (non-tasha's)beastmaster ranger OR mastermind rogue.

See if the groups have an equivalent time with the adventure or if one group fares better. Then switch the pregens between groups and run the same or different adventure and see if there is a difference.

 

[Undrave]

Assign the 1st group the following 8th level pregens:
8th level twilight cleric
8th level polearm master/GWM fighter
8th level diviner wizard
8th level arcane trickster rogue

Assign the 2nd group:
8th level war cleric
8th level purple dragon knight fighter
8th level transmuter wizard
8th level (non-tasha's)beastmaster ranger OR mastermind rogue.

I'd try Trickster Cleric instead of War Cleric. Assassin Rogue might work too.

I'd also like to see a Monk in there... but sticking to subclass of the same class might be smarter?

 

[Mort]

I'd try Trickster Cleric instead of War Cleric. Assassin Rogue might work too.

I'd also like to see a Monk in there... but sticking to subclass of the same class might be smarter?

Yeah, I was going for mostly same class different subclass to avoid confounds.
Though that brings up some confounds on its own - the wizard base class is so good that it likely makes up a lot of ground, for example.

So could be tweaked, but would be interesting to try.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

And if by "balanced" you mean "equally good at lockpicking" they aren't balanced either.

The design goal was to balance across the three pillars. (Social, exploration, combat)

Which is impossible, because the amount of each pillar varies wildly between different tables.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

As a DM, I find myself having to interfere more to balance players who are tactically inept with players who are tactically skilled, and make sure they get an equal share of the limelight, than doing anything to adjust the game mechanics.

 

[Undrave]

As a DM, I find myself having to interfere more to balance players who are tactically inept with players who are tactically skilled, and make sure they get an equal share of the limelight, than doing anything to adjust the game mechanics.

Then the game is balanced. The DM balancing for different player skill is a totally different thing and basically one of the reason they are there.

I'll repeat myself here: nobody is asking for the game to balance on a razor's edge, it just need to be balanced enough that, as a DM, you don't need to worry, or care, about the classes your party picks. You can bring the same advanture to different parties and not have to adjust anything to take certain abilities into account, in either direction. They should be able to beat the adventure, even if they bring a squad of Fighters, a band of Bards, a symposium of Wizards or a varied group.

Some things will be easier for certain parties, while others will be more difficult, and that's normal, but, on the whole, the DM shouldn't need to tinker with the adventure in major ways (mechanically speaking, narratives are a different beast) just because somebody brought a Wizard this week instead of a Monk.

We're saying that the Twilight Cleric is falling outside of this 'sweet spot' of balance.

 

[Ancalagon]

So what do people recommend is a good/fair fix for the Twilight cleric?

Twilight aura does a burst of temp hp once. Even that might be too good.

 

[Cadence]

I'll repeat myself here: nobody is asking for the game to balance on a razor's edge, it just need to be balanced enough that, as a DM, you don't need to worry, or care, about the classes your party picks. You can bring the same advanture to different parties and not have to adjust anything to take certain abilities into account, in either direction. They should be able to beat the adventure, even if they bring a squad of Fighters, a band of Bards, a symposium of Wizards or a varied group.

It feels to me like this is a different balance than what was being discussed before. I don't want the party to need one each of a wizard, rogue, thief, and cleric (and certainly don't want them to need a certain subclass of them!!). But it feels odd to me to expect a module or adventure to work for a party where all the members only excel at one pillar, or all have little melee ability, or where none have casting, or something like that.