D&D 5E How on earth is this balanced?! Twilight cleric, more in-play evidence

[NotAYakk]

So, short fights with focus fire makes this a strong ability.

Long fights with spread out damage makes this an insane ability.

Balance wise, abilities that require pure class levels are less of a problem than dip abilities. As a 2 level dip, this ability sucks. Only by investing at least half of your levels does the action cost pay off in healing in a tough fight.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Then the game is balanced.

It has a twilight cleric in it. So no, the game isn't. DMing is constantly juggling to make sure everyone is having fun, no matter if their character is strong or weak, or their tactical skills are good or bad.

The DM balancing for different player skill is a totally different thing and basically one of the reason they are there.

Nope, it's just the same.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

No problem, and thanks for being open to change your mind in this discussion. That's a pretty rare thing to find on internet forums.

I mean, I’m here to learn all I can to make our table’s experience better. All the same, thank you for the acknowledgement.

I typically only have one or two combats each short rest, and that's only ever on a really combat-heavy day. It's almost always "combat done, you take a short rest, right?" in my games.

Cutting out a bunch of stuff - not b/c I disagree or don’t want to address your other points, but on my phone it gets unwieldy. Plus, really want to dive into the point you make about offering your players up a short rest.

IMO, that’s a DMing stylistic machination that doesn’t exist at every table. At our table, for example, it’s up to the players to tell the DM what they are doing after the DM describes the environment - in this case, describing the aftermath of the combat. For the DM to specify or suggest a particular course of action for the party is really overstepping the DM role in the game (yes, of course I sometimes do this but I try really hard not to). Therefore, at our table, a rest of any kind after a combat is not "almost always" a given - it will be dependent upon the situation at hand and if the players want to try it. In world time pressure, for example, encourages players to weigh the cost/benefit of resting. Note, that this is not an indictment of your playstyle (i.e. if you are having fun, you are doing it right), but it is pointing out how some tables might perceive certain abilities as more powerful than other tables might.

TL;DR: If rests are a given at a table, then abilities which recharge with rests will play more powerfully than at tables where rests are not a given.

 

[Mort]

TL;DR: If rests are a given at a table, then abilities which recharge with rests will play more powerfully than at tables where rests are not a given.

I've found this to be THE biggest factor in discussing both difficulty of encounters and dominance of casters, at least for combat.

When players determine the pace of play (as in determining when they get to rest) casters can let loose with near impunity and, as such, will do significantly better in any combat. Further, because of the larger resource expenditure, combats are going to be much easier for the party (I often see this when people complain that 5e combats are too easy - that DM is usually allowing the group to approach far too many combats when at full capacity).

When the DM dictates the pace of play (significant random encounters, doom clocks, other dangers) the above is not nearly as much an issue.

Having said all that, I can see how the twilight aura is huge in either scenario. Sure you can only use it once per short rest (until high level), but during the encounter it is used, it is extremely efficient HP retention. Being able to retain large amount of HP efficiently (as in with low resource usage) means having more resources available for more encounters and having those encounters be that much easier.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I've found this to be THE biggest factor in discussing both difficulty of encounters and dominance of casters, at least for combat.

When players determine the pace of play (as in determining when they get to rest) casters can let loose with near impunity and, as such, will do significantly better in any combat. Further, because of the larger resource expenditure, combats are going to be much easier for the party (I often see this when people complain that 5e combats are too easy - that DM is usually allowing the group to approach far too many combats when at full capacity).


When the DM dictates the pace of play (significant random encounters, doom clocks, other dangers) the above is not nearly as much an issue.

There's also a difference between the utility of short and long rests. There's only one major caster type (the warlock) that makes significant use of short rests, so handing out short but not long rests tends to be something that empowers the non-casters. It's long rests that empower the casters.

And when sandboxing I tend to run short rest = 8 hours, long rest = long lazy weekend somewhere safe, with aspected and unused temples significantly improving this rest rate. (Which is my excuse for dungeon crawling; if you sleep one night in a friendly temple that's a long rest - and a short rest can be done in fifteen minutes - with about twenty minutes schlepping through the dungeon to get to the temple).

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I've found this to be THE biggest factor in discussing both difficulty of encounters and dominance of casters, at least for combat.

When players determine the pace of play (as in determining when they get to rest) casters can let loose with near impunity and, as such, will do significantly better in any combat. Further, because of the larger resource expenditure, combats are going to be much easier for the party (I often see this when people complain that 5e combats are too easy - that DM is usually allowing the group to approach far too many combats when at full capacity).

When the DM dictates the pace of play (significant random encounters, doom clocks, other dangers) the above is not nearly as much an issue.

Having said all that, I can see how the twilight aura is huge in either scenario. Sure you can only use it once per short rest (until high level), but during the encounter it is used, it is extremely efficient HP retention. Being able to retain large amount of HP efficiently (as in with low resource usage) means having more resources available for more encounters and having those encounters be that much easier.

Additionally, the whole "do two combats each short rest" argument is also flawed because Twilight Clerics only have to wait until level 6 to be able to have 2 uses of Channel Divinity each short rest, thus covering both encounters each short rest.

 

[Ancalagon]

It's once per rest for a minute. Let's not give it more credit than it is due.

It also affects the next fight because the effect lasts a minute, ie probably longer than the battle, so you start the next fight with a good dose of temp HP - those temp HP last until used or a long rest is taken! And at level 6 (not 18, not 9, 6), it's now twice per short rest. As a result, most fights it will have an impact.

Have you actually used or seen used it in play?

 

[Cadence]

It also affects the next fight because the effect lasts a minute, ie probably longer than the battle, so you start the next fight with a good dose of temp HP - those temp HP last until used or a long rest is taken! And at level 6 (not 18, not 9, 6), it's now twice per short rest. As a result, most fights it will have an impact.

Have you actually used or seen used it in play?

Why does.the clock stop when combat ends instead of running out quickly afterwards?

 

[Ancalagon]

Sure you can only use it once per short rest (until high level),

1: I would not call level 6 "high level".
2: The Temp HP will spill over to a 2nd fight.

 

[Ancalagon]

Why does.the clock stop when combat ends instead of running out quickly afterwards?

The ability to give temp HP lasts a minute. Say the fight last 5 rounds, so you have five rounds to roll 1d6+level each round, so you are probably going to roll max on that d6 - so it's level + 6 temp hp.

... then the twilight aura ends... but the temp HP don't go away! They go away following normal temp hp rules (either you use them up or a long rest has passed).