D&D 5E Idea: Prayer Scrolls; Divine, Arcane and Primal Spell Lists

[Klaus]

One of the players in my playtest commented on how unfair it is for wizards to be restricted in their known spells by their spellbook, while clerics and druids gain access to all spells in their respecive lists. I commented on how this was a relic from the days when a cleric's spell list was perhaps 10 spells per level, most of them non-damaging, and limited to 5th (later 7th) level.

This got me thinking: what if clerics and druids had to choose their known spells, much like a wizard, as they gained in level. Instead of a spellbook, they would have prayer scrolls, or some other form of storing their known prayers.

Parallel to this, another thought I had: instead of having spell lists by class, what about having a divine spell list, an arcane spell list, and a primal spell list (for druids, rangers and maybe some flavors of bard)?

 

[jadrax]

I think the next game I run, prayer scrolls are definitely going to be the cleric method of spell learning - it not only solves some perceived issues of fairness, bu it also means the cleric can quest for spells.

Another idea I have seen a few games run with for cleric spells is your god chooses what spells you know, rather than the cleric themselves. So if your god is a pacifist, you don't get Smite, while if you worship the fire-lord... that's good for getting flame strike, not so hot on Heal.

 

[Kinak]

I'd like this, but mostly because having every spell supplement automatically slotted into each character is... weird. It's not so much the imbalance (although you certainly get some of that), it's way it essentially retcons every cleric and druid everytime they want to add a new spell.

That said, I'd be much happier if they completely reworked how clerics handled spellcasting. I can deal with wizards and even druids preparing their spells in advance, but it seems out-of-flavor for clerics.

In our Pathfinder game, the cleric had to explain how he couldn't save an innocent suffering from ghoul fever because he hadn't prepared cure disease that morning. It led to an interesting roleplaying situation with another PC who had worshipped the same goddess foreswearing her, but that really just shines a light on how little sense it makes to prep miracles when you wake up in the morning.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

I certainly wouldn't object to a cleric having to carry around a prayer book.. but I do think it's easier to go down the 2E spheres route - you get to prepare spells that suit your ethos.
A more positive, less restricting, way to do this would be for clerics to gain some power through casting spells their god approves of. So if you're the cleric of Medic the almighty healer, then a cure light wounds spell gives you a token you can spend later to receive healing yourself, directly from your god. If you worship Smash the supreme destroyer, each casting of bless or magic weapon (or maybe each time you kill an enemy) you get a token you can use to enhance your melee damage later.

 

[Li Shenron]

This got me thinking: what if clerics and druids had to choose their known spells, much like a wizard, as they gained in level. Instead of a spellbook, they would have prayer scrolls, or some other form of storing their known prayers.

I played for years in a 3e game with this house rule, basically Clerics and Druids gaining new spells every level-up at the same rate as the Wizard, but able to learn more from scrolls and prayerbooks.

It was totally cool.

Yes the Cleric sometimes didn't have the right spell to dispel your condition.

OTOH, the Cleric sometimes didn't have the right spell to dispel your condition and that rocked, for those who (like me) were in fact bored by "just wait until tomorrow, I'll have Cure <insert condition> ready for you".

Another good benefit is that it helps make different Cleric characters actually different, almost like different Wizards are (of course, Wizards still have more variety in their spells list overall). 3ed was bad at this, even domain spells didn't help much with that.

 

[jrowland]

I've always felt Clerics work best as the Favored Soul from 3E, i.e. spontaneous casting from a small list of "known" spells. I would do it a bit different than Favored Soul: The "known" list is fixed based on ethos/deity. Casting an "unknown" spell requires a higher level spell slot and a wis check vs some DC (basic: cant cast "unknown" cleric spells, standard: DC is fixed at moderate, advanced: DC is easy/moderate/hard based on how well spell aligns with deity's ethos and/or needs).

I would include some spells as "universal" and assumed to be on every list, such as Bless. Cure spells a re bit tricky. On one hand you want them on the list for the Healer God, but on the other hand you want them to be universal. I think they would need to be universal, with a Healer God Cleric feature that really boosts them.

I can imagine the screams of outrage at a fixed, "known" list for clerics, but lets be honest: CoDzilla needs to die. Clerics flexibility should be between the melee or spellcasting choice rather than within spellcasting only. 2E clerics were the best expression of clerics to date, and using that with a Spontaneous casting mechanic would serve 5E well IMO.

 

[Kinak]

I've always felt Clerics work best as the Favored Soul from 3E, i.e. spontaneous casting from a small list of "known" spells.

Agreed. My favored solution is to have their initial "spells known" just be their domain spells and cure/cause spells, then creep up from there. Putting those domain spells front and center makes their god really echo through the mechanics.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[Lackhand]

Even if we say that the clerics have limited spells known, they needn't have a literal spellbook.
It may help to have slightly different phraseology.

Clerics don't cast "spells", they invoke "miracles".
A cleric knows the same number of miracles that a wizard would. They learn new miracles ("are invested with new miracles") by being taught them by extraplanar beings or by other clerics.
They understand how these miracles work, or at least have the shape in their brain that is required to make the miracle go foom -- there's no more contact with this teacher to make the miracle go.
Each day, they meditate on some number of miracles; they can't prepare all of their miracles, because they'd go mad. Or they lack faith and would become troubled. Or it's a game and just deal with it. But basically, they have to shape themselves into believing the world works the way that miracle demands -- wounds can knit, flame can strike, dead can rise -- despite the evidence to the contrary.

Anyway: publishing new spells and getting them into the player's hands is now easy, since they have an acquisition mechanism/limiter.

 

[Lackhand]

Oh man. Even better idea, make the spellbook into a feature. For real. Actual, real, class feature.

So every character has "spells memorized", that's pretty straightforward; pick your level +1 spells from those you have access to; no changes from the current rules.
In order to change the spells memorized, however, you need access to replacements.
Wizards may use captured enemy spellbooks to do so, and may destroy scrolls to add that spell to their own spellbook.

Any spellcaster may use a shrine (spells written in a place) as a source for preparation, too -- in particular, temples operate as a sort of immovable spellbook for clerics, encouraging pilgrimages to healing temples for those clerics whose deities don't have a spell as a core portion of their portfolio.
These spells can be manufactured into magical items (like scrolls) on site, but since the cleric doesn't have a class feature that lets them turn scrolls into spells known or made portable, they're limited to the spells they know the location of (and cannot just memorize them -- they have to actually travel to a place and gain access to the shrine).

I'd also let spellcasters prepare spells from monsters, so a dragon or an angel could help a character swap out a prepared spell for another. That just seems like fun

 

[Sadrik]

One of the things that modifying the list of cleric spells has to accommodate is rules expansion. I do not think the 3e domains worked very well in that regard. Each domain only had one spell per level, what if there were 2 spells that matched for a particular domain. of any given level you were limited to only one.

I think the sphere of 2e were better but were still more difficult to add spells into without having to reference several books to figure out which spells were in which spheres. Probably the best way to handle it would be to simply classify spells into broader groups based on the deity selection. So I suppose not too unlike the spheres but perhaps a little broader in composition as the deities are listed. So if the deities are broad strokes, the spell lists for each of them can be quite broad too. Perhaps each spell could list its deity similar to how conjuration and evocation are listed too. This would be an excellent approach in my opinion. Provides variability, and broad enough so you do not get some of those extremely weak spheres or extremely powerful spheres like in 2e.