Immortals Handbook - ASCENSION

[dante58701]

In either case, regeneration could be extraordinary or supernatural. WOTC was very assumptive to declare all forms of regeneration is extraordinary, their ruling has no logical basis. Saying it's all extraordinary or all supernatural is like saying all peanut butter is creamy or all peanut butter is crunchy. I think a three tier option would be best. As for "natural" creatures, I think it should always be extraordinary, while for enchanted/supernatural creatures it could be either.

As for SRD, it has a few holes, so I tend to take it with a grain of salt. Same goes for the core books. Nobody said WOTC was perfect.

I mean...look at the Fiendish Codex series...first the fiend lords "WERE THE FIEND LORDS THEMSELVES" now the fiend lords "ARE ASPECTS". In my own opinion, WOTC is rather flaky and tends to subscribe to consumerism. They are constantly changing their "SET" rulings and constantly refusing to use a damn spellchecker on their incredibly mistake riddled books.

I personally think a third grader could do better editing at times. They rush out their products without much thought as to actual game effect in comparison with potential real world style applications.

They do come up with some excellent ideas...but many of those ideas are in need of heavy refinement...especially where abilities like regeneration, fast healing, and undead are concerned, especially especially where anything Epic is concerned.

And that is where these forums come in. Here we can discuss the pros and cons of the various rules and the flaws within. Here is were we can get together and help the masters of epic fix those problems and refine them within extraneous books.

So...while I can see both points, there is no need to bicker about something so mute.

 

[dante58701]

Oh... Krusty...I see your points, so I think we should all work together to revise outsiders to coincide with the Epic Bestiary. Perhaps on another thread called revisions.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

How would that work? Surely not "they regenerate all damage, since damage won't be unholy in an antimagic field"?

Well, Regeneration *usually* is overcome by Fire or Acid.
What I say is if a being, like the Tarrasque, (Who is an abomination in all but title) who possess a supernatural regeneration with special features of note, (Like the tarrasque's unstoppable regen) lose those qualities. Ex: In an antimagic field, you could kill a tarrasque with hundreds of flasks of alchemists' acid. (Though he might regenerate if the Anti-magic field goes away and theres still a big-enough piece left)
Example 2 - The Atropal has regeneration. Now, it does list a weakness and that it is an exception to the rules. This supernatural Regeneration would go away totally within an Anti-magic field.
But yea, it's a tough one to quantify whos' regeneration is Supernatural and all, and it would most likely be done on a Case-by-case basis as needed. Now, my idea of a guideline is that if the regeneration is different from the SRD description: Needing something other than Fire or Acid, ability to be applied to beings without constitution, etc, qualifies the Regeneration as supernatural, either in whole or in part.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey dante dude!

how would you revise a solar (MM outsiders are in DIre need of Epic BEstiary style revisions and we might want to start a thread just for that)?

I have contemplated it, but I don't think the effort is worth the reward because I wouldn't impose that many changes.

For the Solar...CR 28

Natural Armour would become +5, but they would gain a Deflection bonus for Charisma and a Divine Bonus of +4.

They would be ECL 42 meaning they would get 4 artifacts of 4.41 million each or thereabouts.

Sword: +7 Dancing Greatsword of Sharpness?
Bow: +8 Holy Comp. Longbow of Distance, Seeking and Speed?
Robes: ?
Quiver: Arrows add Dread effect to bow.

Cleric Spells would drop to 11th-level with caster level 26th.

Portfolios would be Good and Fire.

...something like that.

Not sure about Divine Abilities, probably Improved Damage Reduction and Regeneration for starters.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi WarDragon matey!

Regeneration is always Extraordinary. Says so in the SRD.

As some people have pointed out, I occasionally have issues with the official rules...always with good reason of course.

In this case I just don't think its logical that something with an inherent supernatural component (such as Regeneration overcome by holy/unholy weaponry or spells) could be in itself natural.

While there are a small handful of creatures who can regrow appendages in the real world, none of them can come back from the dead, which in my view is a second supernatural aspect of regeneration.

In many ways you could perhaps seperate things as follows (although this is just me brainstorming out loud).

1. Fast Healing
2. Regeneration...severed limbs will eventually regrow (though decapitation still effective)
3. Cellular Regeneration...cells regenerate even after 'death' (decapitation ineffective means of destruction)

Regeneration in D&D seems to encompass 1,2 & 3.

 

[Cheiromancer]

And the question about supernatural regeneration is whether it is *all* supernatural, or if the supernatural component merely "patches" an extraordinary form of regeneration.

For example, nothing deals lethal damage to a tarrasque. That sounds supernatural. But does that mean the tarrasque has no regeneration at all when he's in a dead magic zone? Or maybe he receives lethal damage from fire and acid under those circumstances.

I guess I'm sort of making the troll the paradigm of extraordinary regeneration. Creatures with extraordinary immunities to some elements would have different vulnerabilities (a red half-dragon troll would take lethal damage from cold, say).

Like Krusty, just brainstorming out loud.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Yea, the whole Regeneration issue is kindof odd. If you leave it as-is, any creature with a supernatural - kind of regen would love to be in an anti-magic field. ("Hah, you need holy weapons to kill me, but you can't have a holy weapon here, mwhahahaha!")

Perhaps there should be a limit to how fast a creature can regenerate before said regeneration falls under the supernatural level. Ex: A "special" troll with regeneration 80 couldn't possibly be natural; You would need to deatomize the darn thing to kill it.
But a Time Lord with regeneration 80 I could picture; 80 points isn't even a pin-prick to such a being.

So, as I see it, there are several pointers to see if a creature requires a Supernatural addendum to their regeneration entry:

- If they regenerate HP faster than their HD should allow; More regeneration per round than HD means its supernatural. Ex: A 10 HD monster could have up to 10 point regeneration before it becomes supernatural.

- If their regeneration has a supernatural component to the weakness, like requireing an aligned attack. A creature with regeneration overcome by Salt, lets say, might not be supernatural, but a creature that can only be harmed by Blessed weapons would have supernatural regeneration. A creature with an [energy] subtype should have regeneration overcome by the opposed energy. (Ex: A fire creature would need to be harmed by cold; Fire just wouldn't do it)

- If the "rules" of their regeneration are different than the normal regeneration rules. Though perhaps it should be better to check to see if their form of regeneration is more benificial than the norm. Ex: A creature that can regenerate even if killed/decapitated, or if they regrow limbs much faster than normal.

- If the creature couldn't normally possess regeneration, such as a construct or an undead. The rules of their regeneration should be listed in full. Stupid invincible Atropals...

Well, thats all I can think of. I don't think the regeneration issue will come up too terribly often, but it could become an issue. (Especially in epic where every monster and their grandmothers have regeneration)

 

[WarDragon]

Hi WarDragon matey!



As some people have pointed out, I occasionally have issues with the official rules...always with good reason of course.

In this case I just don't think its logical that something with an inherent supernatural component (such as Regeneration overcome by holy/unholy weaponry or spells) could be in itself natural.

While there are a small handful of creatures who can regrow appendages in the real world, none of them can come back from the dead, which in my view is a second supernatural aspect of regeneration.

In many ways you could perhaps seperate things as follows (although this is just me brainstorming out loud).

1. Fast Healing
2. Regeneration...severed limbs will eventually regrow (though decapitation still effective)
3. Cellular Regeneration...cells regenerate even after 'death' (decapitation ineffective means of destruction)

Regeneration in D&D seems to encompass 1,2 & 3.

Well, I don't think "it happens or can't happen in the real world" is a good measure of whether something's Extraordinary or not; the laws of physics just don't work the same way in the D&D setting, they can't if other things that we accept can happen.

Also, regeneration can't bring anything back from the dead; if you're just taking nonlethal damage, that means something simply can't kill you.

I do not think there's a balance problem with the current Regeneration divine ability being extraordinary, which must be the primary concern; if it's balanced, you can justify flavor for it, but you can't justify something being unbalanced because the flavor you decided on demands it. As for holy/unholy damage overcoming Regeneration (Ex), that just means the creature in question has a bad reaction, an "allergy" if you will to those particular energies. I do agree that things without Con scores should never have Regeneration; if they had it before losing their Con score, it should either be lost, or change to Fast Healing.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

...
I do not think there's a balance problem with the current Regeneration divine ability being extraordinary, which must be the primary concern; if it's balanced, you can justify flavor for it, but you can't justify something being unbalanced because the flavor you decided on demands it. As for holy/unholy damage overcoming Regeneration (Ex), that just means the creature in question has a bad reaction, an "allergy" if you will to those particular energies. I do agree that things without Con scores should never have Regeneration; if they had it before losing their Con score, it should either be lost, or change to Fast Healing.

I think the main reason beings without Con cannot have regeneration is the way Regeneration is worded, not because it "Just couldn't happen."

Fast healing doesnt allow for the regrowing of limbs, so what if I wanted some "regenerating" skeletons; Skeletons that reconstitute themselves unless completely destroyed. (IE they reattach limbs and the like)
That, and its kindof silly that a Lich can have it's head cut off without penalty, but cannot re-attach it.

 

[mercucio]

U_K,

How would you suggest handling access to epic spells for deities? Right now tha artifact system really doesn't take the cost of deities developing epics into account, since deities really don't have wealth the way PCs do. I have some ideas on how to handle it for the game I am planning on running, but I'd like to hear from you on the subject.