Immortals Handbook - ASCENSION

[Upper_Krust]

Hi WarDragon matey!

Well, I don't think "it happens or can't happen in the real world" is a good measure of whether something's Extraordinary or not;

I would have thought that was the perfect 'yardstick' for the job.

the laws of physics just don't work the same way in the D&D setting, they can't if other things that we accept can happen.

To me any such elements are simply broken rules that probably need fixing.

Also, regeneration can't bring anything back from the dead; if you're just taking nonlethal damage, that means something simply can't kill you.

Semantics if you ask me.

If you take two identical beings then give one of them a ring of regeneration what would kill one of them won't kill the other, however for a time (less than -10 hp) they would be clinically 'dead'.

I do not think there's a balance problem with the current Regeneration divine ability being extraordinary, which must be the primary concern; if it's balanced, you can justify flavor for it, but you can't justify something being unbalanced because the flavor you decided on demands it.

I never said it was unbalanced as extraordinary, I just think it makes more sense that it should be supernatural.

As for holy/unholy damage overcoming Regeneration (Ex), that just means the creature in question has a bad reaction, an "allergy" if you will to those particular energies.

...allergies which are supernatural in origin.

I do agree that things without Con scores should never have Regeneration; if they had it before losing their Con score, it should either be lost, or change to Fast Healing.

I'm not totally sure about this, certainly vampires are often depicted with regeneration (in movies and anime).

I think WotC just backed themselves into a corner with this non-lethal damage thing.

 

[Upper_Krust]

U_K,

Hiya mate!

How would you suggest handling access to epic spells for deities?

The exact same way they handle it now.

Right now tha artifact system really doesn't take the cost of deities developing epics into account, since deities really don't have wealth the way PCs do.

Deities have wealth, I just don't see it being as important for gods. Given that they can still only learn a certain amount of epic spells I would allow deities the development costs for free.

I have some ideas on how to handle it for the game I am planning on running, but I'd like to hear from you on the subject.

Well its an issue I am sure I will raise in Grimoire, but I think my epic magic system will be quicker, easier...and hopefully more seductive than the official system.

 

[paradox42]

I never said it was unbalanced as extraordinary, I just think it makes more sense that it should be supernatural.

If you think Regeneration can't be Extraordinary, then how do you explain the regeneration of creatures in our world, such as lizards regrowing their own tails and frogs regrowing lost limbs? Doctors are on the verge of what they call "regenerative medicine" for humans, too, which would mean being able to grow whole new replacement organs and tissues for stuff that the patient lost somehow. Now, in D&D this occurs much faster than in our world, true, but that doesn't mean it's Supernatural. Many, many sci-fi stories (including one I know you're familiar with, the Eccleston incarnation of Doctor Who) have used the idea of nanomachines to allow people to regenerate in precisely the manner described for D&D- and they don't even have vulnerable damage types like Fire or Acid. Would you call nanomachines Supernatural or Extraordinary? Most people I know, including myself, would say Extraordinary, since they're clearly technological rather than magical- even if we ourselves in Earth of 2007 don't yet know how to make them.

How is the Divine version of Regeneration any different from using nanomachines? Better yet, why should it be different, particularly if you're set on equating high-tech worlds to high-magic ones?

Given that they can still only learn a certain amount of epic spells I would allow deities the development costs for free.

...How? There's no limit to the number of epic spells known in the SRD rules. Is this a Grimoire thing?

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

...
...How? There's no limit to the number of epic spells known in the SRD rules. Is this a Grimoire thing?

Perhaps U_K was refering to the limited # of spells Per day? A spellcaster can't cast too many epic spells, even if he or she knew "them all", like how a 17th level wizard can't cast every 9th level spell even if he has all of them in his spellbook.

That, and an epic mage can only craft a spell that is so powerful. Mitigating factors would be unwise choices for a deity to make, since they generally leave you weakened or helpless while casting; A Rival god could swoop right in and kill you. That leaves only spells with a DC of 10+Ranks+Ability mod+(Feats&synergies). Heck, a deity wasting time crafting epic spells is probably neglecting their responsibilities.

Given how easy it is for an epic level, never mind a divine, character to obtain gold, (Steal it, conjure it, make it, etc) gold is just one of those resources that doesnt matter after a while. Like Rations: once the party gets Create food and Water, they don't matter too much any more.

 

[WarDragon]

Hi WarDragon matey!
I would have thought that was the perfect 'yardstick' for the job.

No.... they're flat-out said to be able to break the laws of physics (as we know them).

To me any such elements are simply broken rules that probably need fixing.

Right. No such thing as magic then, since Real World physics don't allow for it. Dragons can't really fly or breath fire, all giants are immediately be crushed to death by their own weight upon reaching maturity, and no human can ever have more than 23 in a given stat, by any conceivable means. Oh, and non-physical beings and entire planes of existence? Pure poppycock. :\

Semantics if you ask me.

If you take two identical beings then give one of them a ring of regeneration what would kill one of them won't kill the other, however for a time (less than -10 hp) they would be clinically 'dead'.

No, the one wearing the ring (assuming it granted regeneration ability, which it doesn't) would not have taken any lethal damage. Just like somebody who'd been knocked out by a tazer, or a sleeping pill.

I never said it was unbalanced as extraordinary, I just think it makes more sense that it should be supernatural.

...allergies which are supernatural in origin.

I fail to see how either of these logically follows.

I'm not totally sure about this, certainly vampires are often depicted with regeneration (in movies and anime).

I think WotC just backed themselves into a corner with this non-lethal damage thing.

Vampires have fast healing, which can restore them even from below 0 hit points. It works fine.

Deities have wealth, I just don't see it being as important for gods. Given that they can still only learn a certain amount of epic spells I would allow deities the development costs for free.

As paradox said, this statement is flat-out incorrect.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

If you think Regeneration can't be Extraordinary, then how do you explain the regeneration of creatures in our world, such as lizards regrowing their own tails and frogs regrowing lost limbs?

If you read above, when I lay out my 3 criteria I list that only cellular regeneration, in effect bringing people back from the dead*, is inherantly supernatural, not limb regrowth. Since this effect is built into D&D regeneration as standard, I therefore see it as supernatural.

*Or to satisfy WarDragon, making it so you only take non-lethal damage regardless of the source.

Doctors are on the verge of what they call "regenerative medicine" for humans, too, which would mean being able to grow whole new replacement organs and tissues for stuff that the patient lost somehow. Now, in D&D this occurs much faster than in our world, true, but that doesn't mean it's Supernatural. Many, many sci-fi stories (including one I know you're familiar with, the Eccleston incarnation of Doctor Who) have used the idea of nanomachines to allow people to regenerate in precisely the manner described for D&D- and they don't even have vulnerable damage types like Fire or Acid. Would you call nanomachines Supernatural or Extraordinary? Most people I know, including myself, would say Extraordinary, since they're clearly technological rather than magical- even if we ourselves in Earth of 2007 don't yet know how to make them.

If they are technological in origin then they are not a natural part of the body and therefore no different from a magic potion.

How is the Divine version of Regeneration any different from using nanomachines? Better yet, why should it be different, particularly if you're set on equating high-tech worlds to high-magic ones?

Mechanically I think it is far to easy to eliminate the inherent weaknesses of regeneration, which then brings us to the point where it renders Fast Healing obsolete.

...How? There's no limit to the number of epic spells known in the SRD rules. Is this a Grimoire thing?

Use the spells per day as the limiter when handing out 'free' epic spells..

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

No.... they're flat-out said to be able to break the laws of physics (as we know them).

Right. No such thing as magic then, since Real World physics don't allow for it. Dragons can't really fly or breath fire, all giants are immediately be crushed to death by their own weight upon reaching maturity, and no human can ever have more than 23 in a given stat, by any conceivable means. Oh, and non-physical beings and entire planes of existence? Pure poppycock. :\

D&D certainly has a very low physical factor, but the fact remains is that it still does have its own physics.

No, the one wearing the ring (assuming it granted regeneration ability, which it doesn't) would not have taken any lethal damage. Just like somebody who'd been knocked out by a tazer, or a sleeping pill.

Exactly...semantics.

I fail to see how either of these logically follows.

If an integral part of the regeneration is that it is undone by holy/unholy damage then to me it can only be supernatural.

Likewise something that can render any amount of physical trauma irrelevant is to me supernatural.

Any creature with fire immunity and regeneration could survive a supernova or a big bang.

Vampires have fast healing, which can restore them even from below 0 hit points. It works fine.

But then they can't regenerate limbs, nor can they regenerate from cases of extreme trauma...which is a staple component of many vampire movies/anime.

As paradox said, this statement is flat-out incorrect.

See above.

 

[WarDragon]

Mechanically I think it is far to easy to eliminate the inherent weaknesses of regeneration, which then brings us to the point where it renders Fast Healing obsolete.

I saw somewhere or other that if Regeneration becomes impenetrable, for whatever reason, it turns into Fast Healing. If it's not official, it would be a damn sensible houserule.

D&D certainly has a very low physical factor, but the fact remains is that it still does have its own physics.

So, you admit that D&D physics are substantially different from Real-Life physics?

If an integral part of the regeneration is that it is undone by holy/unholy damage then to me it can only be supernatural.

Likewise something that can render any amount of physical trauma irrelevant is to me supernatural.

Why? In the D&D setting, with those different physics I mentioned, holy and unholy energy are no more unnatural than, say, a bad sunburn.

Any creature with fire immunity and regeneration could survive a supernova or a big bang.

Isn't that why you gave those events different types of damage than just fire? Regeneration wouldn't protect from those, especially Con and disintegration.

But then they can't regenerate limbs, nor can they regenerate from cases of extreme trauma...which is a staple component of many vampire movies/anime.

Why not? Just call it a special fast healing. Or, when they're reduced to 0 hp and forced into mist, they reform with the limbs upon reaching 1 hp in the coffin. Aren't they supposed to only be vulnerable to certain things?

Oh, and don't quote anime to me, Krusty. I refuse to accept it as having any validity in any sort of argument.

 

[paradox42]

If you read above, when I lay out my 3 criteria I list that only cellular regeneration, in effect bringing people back from the dead*, is inherantly supernatural, not limb regrowth. Since this effect is built into D&D regeneration as standard, I therefore see it as supernatural.

But my point is still valid- there's nothing inherently supernatural about cellular regrowth. A true resurrection technology only needs two things; it needs the ability to clone the original body, which we in Earth of 2007 are almost able to do, and the ability to restore the configuration of the mind and memories of the original person into the newly-grown brain. We know the second one will be extraordinarily difficult, but there's no sound reason to believe it's actually forbidden by our physiology or the laws of physics. Simply regrowing the cells is trivial; a "dead body" isn't fully dead for several years after the death of the brain- that's been known for decades. Fingernails and hair still grow in the grave, for example- cells are still alive to accomplish that. Take one of those cells and chemically convince it to start dividing again, and voila: new body parts. Potentially, new body.

If they are technological in origin then they are not a natural part of the body and therefore no different from a magic potion.

So what you're saying is they're supernatural as a result, and thus nanotech will shut down and fail in an Anti-Magic Zone? That is something I will never accept- the whole point of using technology instead of magic is that it works in places where magic doesn't. Perhaps the magic potion applies a similar mechanic in medical terms to speed up healing, when compared with nanites doing the same thing, but the basic power source of the magic potion and how that power source operates to cause the essential effect are radically different. Nanotech-based regeneration must be different from magical healing in that qualitative sense, or the whole basis of comparison between technology and magic goes out the window.

Mechanically I think it is far to easy to eliminate the inherent weaknesses of regeneration, which then brings us to the point where it renders Fast Healing obsolete.

Well, of course it renders Fast Healing obsolete. Regeneration has always been better in every way, since they introduced the two abilities; Fast Healing was (as I recall) originally introduced in FAQs as "Regeneration Lite." It was specifically designed to be a lesser version of Regeneration for creatures which were supposed to be less powerful than those like, say, Pit Fiends.

IMO it makes sense to declare Regeneration a Supernatural ability when it is overcome by alignment-based damage, or some other esoteric magical effect (for example, Bane weapons or Cursed weapons). Regeneration which is overcome by a specific material represents a sort of allergy, as WarDragon said, and the actual source of said allergy is irrelevant- the allergy itself is a natural function of the creature's body and the Regeneration is thus Extraordinary. And of course, Regeneration which is overcome by energy, like Fire or Acid, is Extraordinary because presumably those energy types destroy the cells and prevent them from dividing to produce new ones. Finally, regeneration which can't be overcome at all- like the Tarrasque- is also Extraordinary, because that's how nanotech Regeneration should logically work.

It helps to keep in mind here that with 3E the designers closed the "silliness loopholes" with such things as chopping a troll up into fifty pieces and thus creating an army of 50 trolls. The troll has to reattach its lost parts if they're still available, or grow new ones while the old ones decay from lack of attachment to its body.

Use the spells per day as the limiter when handing out 'free' epic spells..

Gotcha. Only counts during character creation. That's perfectly fair, and a good yardstick- I'll start using it for my own divine-level NPCs. Particularly that Polychromatic Dragon Sorcerer who's going to be facing down my Epic PCs fairly soon...

 

[WarDragon]

Well, of course it renders Fast Healing obsolete. Regeneration has always been better in every way, since they introduced the two abilities; Fast Healing was (as I recall) originally introduced in FAQs as "Regeneration Lite." It was specifically designed to be a lesser version of Regeneration for creatures which were supposed to be less powerful than those like, say, Pit Fiends.

That's funny; I always considered Fast Healing the more powerful of the two, since it affects all damage, regardless of type.