Immortals Handbook - ASCENSION

[Cheiromancer]

Now we have an official quote!

I am writing Ghost in the Shell d20... all future Immortals Handbook products will have... all-encompassing anime roots

 

[Alzrius]

Well then how about the official rules for regeneration are broken because they cannot be added to undead without supposedly breaking the system.

They don't really need to be added to undead at all, do they? Fast healing is largely enough for them; even if you get into the question of severing an undead creature's limbs, that still seems too small to reinvent the wheel over.

What people seem to be saying is that asking whether or not a rule should be revised is a valid question. If a mechanic is broken - if it slows down gameplay and is clumsy to adjudicate with the rest of the rules, then by all means, replace it with something that works better. But if it's that you have a philosophical problem with it, if you think its largely okay now, but could be better or more accurate in "real life," then that seems like a less solid reason to change it, especially when there's still so much other work to be done.

I'm sure there's something to be said for how such a revision would be better, more accurate, etc. But that can be said for virtually everything; nothing's so good that it can't be improved upon somehow. But in the meantime, U_K, I don't think that there's anyone here who wouldn't rather have you apply your prodigious talents to areas where the rules don't do a very good job of covering things, which is what the IH is all about.

I think we could settle all this if there was a threshold for physical oblivion. I'm thinking that a single source of damage that deals more than double the targets maximum hit points score will vapourise enough of the creature that even regeneration will prove ineffective.

That sounds like a small addition to the massive damage threshold rules.

Now this is funny. I make an offhand remark about anime and all of a sudden I am writing Ghost in the Shell d20!

That's been done: Ghost in the Shell d20.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

...
I think we could settle all this if there was a threshold for physical oblivion. I'm thinking that a single source of damage that deals more than double the targets maximum hit points score will vapourise enough of the creature that even regeneration will prove ineffective.

Any thoughts?
...

Even 2x damage is too little. At Fighter or Barbarian at low levels will be vaporizing goblins left and right.

I like the threash-hold idea.

Perhaps it should be like this:
Hit Damage - Effect - Regeneration?
Damage = Max Hit points - Could render victem auto-unconcious (Unless they are immune) - Regeneration may still apply.

Damage = 2X Max HP - Probably breaks bones and destroyes vital organs. (Would prevent raise dead) - Regeneration had better work on a cellular level.

Damage = 4X Max HP - Blown Appart completely, Deatomized, Vaporized, Disinitgrated, Etc. (or for those of you who are a fan of Mummy from White Wolf, the "Dust/Ash damage level" ) (Would prevent ressurection less than True Rez) - Regeneration better work on a molecular level to save you.

Damage = Over 8X Max HP - "Total Oblivion" - I dont think ANYTHING comes back. (This kind of damage might even damage the soul of the individual; Meaning they won't want to come back)

Just ideas. Perhaps there also should be some sort of minimum damage level at each of these levels. Dealing 8X damage to a creature with 2 Hp isn't hard at 1st level: Crit with Greatsword...

 

[CRGreathouse]

Damage = 4X Max HP - Blown Appart completely, Deatomized, Vaporized, Disinitgrated, Etc. (or for those of you who are a fan of Mummy from White Wolf, the "Dust/Ash damage level" ) (Would prevent ressurection less than True Rez) - Regeneration better work on a molecular level to save you.

Damage = Over 8X Max HP - "Total Oblivion" - I dont think ANYTHING comes back. (This kind of damage might even damage the soul of the individual; Meaning they won't want to come back)

This is a radical change from the current rules, since resurrection can bring someone back who is just a pile of dust from disintegrate and true resurrection needs no body whatever. I don't even think (max hit points + 10) x 8 should be enough to stop resurrection.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Now we have an official quote!

And the other side will quote "ie. None that you would notice.".

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

This is a radical change from the current rules, since resurrection can bring someone back who is just a pile of dust from disintegrate and true resurrection needs no body whatever. I don't even think (max hit points + 10) x 8 should be enough to stop resurrection.

Oh, Guess I better recheck the rules; The way I always remembered it was this:
Raise Dead: Brings back to life as long as body whole.
Ressurection: Brings back as long as there is a body.
True Rez: Brings back even from dust or Death spell.

Edit: Ok, rechecked the R.A.W.; It seems the only benifit to Ressurection VS Raise is the Rez brings you back to full health and can do so from dust.

 

[WarDragon]

Hiya mate!

So you are suggesting if I rule that regeneration is Supernatural I am the big bad wolf, but if we change regeneration altogether if someone shores up their weaknesses (in effect punishing them for their involvement) its somehow a good thing.

Changing regeneration to fast healing is a smaller change than making regeneration supernatural or splitting it up. Occam's Razor, my friend.

No. I think they are the same, only less so.

By that I mean clearly the fundamental forces at work are not as strong in a low physical factor universe.

I already illustrated this point on the website at the tail end of the Godzilla stats.

I disagree; in RL, things are made of 100+ odd elements; in D&D, they're made of only four, plus two fundamental energies. In RL cold, darkness, and death are the absence of heat, light, and life, respectively; in D&D, they are forces unto themselves, which oppose and mutually annihilate heat, light, and life.

They are inherantly unnatural.

I think you are confusing unnatural with uncommon.

Indeed I am not, sir. Holy and unholy energy are no more unnatural in the D&D setting than electromagnetic energy is in our universe.

Debateable.

Con Damage won't last forever and disintegration only breaks down molecular bonds, so if you are regenerating at a molecular level anyway you won't be killed.

Er... Regeneration doesn't fix ability damage, and if your Constitution is reduced to 0, you're dead. It doesn't get much more "lasting forever" than that, as long as the supernova deals enough Con damage to kill flat-out; even if it doesn't, a regenerater won't heal that damage any faster than a normal human. As for disintegration, I am of the opinion that it should always be counted as lethal damage, or in this case, a death effect.

Certainly there are any number of ways to handle it, I have suggested one way, you have suggested another.

Aye.

Well then how about the official rules for regeneration are broken because they cannot be added to undead without supposedly breaking the system.

Which is why Regeneration specifies that you can't have it if you don't have a Con score. Undead and constructs can have fast healing, with special clauses that let them reattach limbs; again, Occam's Razor.

I can say that all future Immortals Handbook products will have the same overbearing, all-encompassing anime roots as the Epic Bestiary: Volume One...ie. None that you would notice.

Works for me. I can't really say why (because I don't know), but I just find most anime to be inherently annoying... same as psionics in a fantasy setting.

 

[Pssthpok]

I think we could settle all this if there was a threshold for physical oblivion. I'm thinking that a single source of damage that deals more than double the targets maximum hit points score will vapourise enough of the creature that even regeneration will prove ineffective.

Any thoughts?

I kinda like this idea, in principle. We see it at the end of the Buu Saga in DBZ. Son Goku hits Kid Buu with a spirit bomb so powerful that even Buu's regeneration is helpless to save him.

Now, the goblin problem is a touch nut to crack, but if you adjudicate that the single damage source also has to be an area of effect (thus affecting every part of the subject), then it rules out barbarians vaporizing anything at any level, leaving that little treat to evokers and such, and makes sense seeing as you'd want to say that every cell/molecule is being destroyed at once for this to occur. One thing to keep in mind however is the idea that creatures with massive penalties to attack due to size have a chance of hitting a target via an area of effect, but the solution to all these problems is to say that the vaporising effect only occurs in the case of non-physical damage.
Hm?

 

[Alzrius]

Son Goku hits Kid Buu with a spirit bomb so powerful that even Buu's regeneration is helpless to save him.

I honestly don't think that regeneration was the issue there. Buu wasn't regenerating anything because he had no bones or internal organs; he was simply composed of a pink doughy substance. In essence, just altering his form did nothing (though he did seem to feel pain) that he couldn't immediately undo. Using an energy blast to vaporize all of him into nothing was pretty much the only way to really destroy him.

 

[Pssthpok]

I honestly don't think that regeneration was the issue there. Buu wasn't regenerating anything because he had no bones or internal organs; he was simply composed of a pink doughy substance. In essence, just altering his form did nothing (though he did seem to feel pain) that he couldn't immediately undo. Using an energy blast to vaporize all of him into nothing was pretty much the only way to really destroy him.

I can agree with this. He did get it handed to him here and there, at least until he absorbed the aggressor. But that was ostensibly from unique attacks that were harder to repair.