Immortals Handbook - ASCENSION

[Pssthpok]

Oh, and don't quote anime to me, Krusty. I refuse to accept it as having any validity in any sort of argument.

Uh... TS. If inspiration for the IH books is coming from anime and you're not the one writing the text, then it is valid in this argument. Just because you don't like something doesn't make it invalid. Where do people like you come from?

IMO it makes sense to declare Regeneration a Supernatural ability when it is overcome by alignment-based damage, or some other esoteric magical effect (for example, Bane weapons or Cursed weapons). Regeneration which is overcome by a specific material represents a sort of allergy, as WarDragon said, and the actual source of said allergy is irrelevant- the allergy itself is a natural function of the creature's body and the Regeneration is thus Extraordinary. And of course, Regeneration which is overcome by energy, like Fire or Acid, is Extraordinary because presumably those energy types destroy the cells and prevent them from dividing to produce new ones. Finally, regeneration which can't be overcome at all- like the Tarrasque- is also Extraordinary, because that's how nanotech Regeneration should logically work.

I think I agree with you here.
Like this, right?:

Regeneration Overcome By... : Type - Why
Alignment-based damage: Su - Alignment-based damage is necessarily magical, and thus necessarily supernatural.
Energy, even if produced magically: Ex - Energy is not necessarily magical, and using path of least resistance one can safely say that it is also not necessarily supernatural.
Material unaffected by supernatural/spell(-like) process: Ex - Such material is explicitly not magical and as such is explicitly not supernatural.
Material necessarily affected by supernatrual/spell(-like) process: Su - Reverse of the above.
Nothing: Ex - If nothing can overcome this type of regeneration, that fact should be a universal maxim extending even to antimagic fields.


In terms of Fast Healing versus Regeneration, the latter is clearly superior since it removes the threat of death from inadequate damage. Fast Healing works to an extent, but once the creature dies the effect stops working; Regen works as long as 100% of the hit points weren't damaged by an adequate type.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Regeneration 0 is a powerful ability -- all damage from certain sources is conveted to nonlethal damage. Each "point" of regeneration heals nonlethal damage.

Fast healing 0 is worthless. Each additional point heals nonlethal damage, if you have it, and then lethal damage -- making an additional point of fast healing better than an additional point of regeneration.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Uh... TS. If inspiration for the IH books is coming from anime and you're not the one writing the text, then it is valid in this argument. Just because you don't like something doesn't make it invalid. Where do people like you come from?

I completely agree with WarDragon here. I don't think that using anime is a good argument: I'd prefer a stronger something stronger than "I saw it once on this show". Now certainly U_K is free to write it however he wants -- but the more he uses things that don't appeal to his audience the less chance he has of selling them things. In my case I'm very likely to pick up Ascension, whenever it's released, but I may not get the other two parts (Grimoire and Chronicle) depending on how comics/anime heavy they are. If fairly light, then there'd even be a chance of me getting the Immortal Index series; if not, it would literally be more work than it's worth to rewrite.

Actually, in my case the comic book pseudo-science bothers me more than anime, but I don't like either.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

That's funny; I always considered Fast Healing the more powerful of the two, since it affects all damage, regardless of type.

I think you are right, except the regrowing limbs part. Granted, there isn't a single thing in the R.A.W. besides Vorpal that notes that you can lose limbs. (Kinda pointless to have stuff to prevent it then) So yes, in the current rules set, it is less useful than fast-healing.

Old-timer D&D fans remember ye olde ring of Regeneration, which could bring you back from the dead. (As long as the foe didn't take it from you after they killed you) Which I kindof liked. Heck the "Ring of Regeneration" in the DMG sucks. It works so slow, that your opponent will have looted your body long before you get up.

I tend to run regeneration in games as more of the 2E version (Including Rings of regeneration, which would give Regeneration 3, overcome by Fire and Acid); Granted, in my non-epic games we have taken to use an old Hackmaster wound table, conveted to D20, (And no, there arn't any instant kill entries, though there are a few likely to take you out of a fight) which makes things like Regeneration a godsend. "Wait, you mean I can get my left-arm back?!? HURRAY!"

 

[dante58701]

Quote:
Originally Posted by WarDragon
Oh, and don't quote anime to me, Krusty. I refuse to accept it as having any validity in any sort of argument.




I tend to disagree, anime has some validity as it is based loosely on real world facts.

Similarly D&D in general is based loosely on real world facts.

If we were to nit pick at all we would all be hypocritical since much of science is pure conjecture, accepted "theory", and a hint of truth at this point.

Nearly anything can be argued to have no validity or argued to have validity based upon theoretical doctrine and one's point of view.

Simply put...

Anything, given the right circumstances, is possible.

It doesn't make much sense for anyone to try to enforce their particular views on a subject simply because said person does not agree with the subject matter at hand.

While I understand the need for continuity in certain things, there is a point when continuity simply becomes another system of control.

"Demanding" that one not use anime as a basis for argument, is quite authoritative and in many ways insulting.

Perhaps a request would have been kinder.

Afterall...this site is a democracy.


Further, I would like to note that Krusty mentioned "movies/anime"...which means movies and anime, not just anime.

What's with all the anime haters lately?

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

As far as physics go, Anime, Real Life, Comics, Videogames, Movies, etc. All have the same relevence, since we are relating them to a set of hypothetical physics as is.

 

[paradox42]

I think I agree with you here.
Like this, right?:

Regeneration Overcome By... : Type - Why
Alignment-based damage: Su - Alignment-based damage is necessarily magical, and thus necessarily supernatural.
Energy, even if produced magically: Ex - Energy is not necessarily magical, and using path of least resistance one can safely say that it is also not necessarily supernatural.
Material unaffected by supernatural/spell(-like) process: Ex - Such material is explicitly not magical and as such is explicitly not supernatural.
Material necessarily affected by supernatrual/spell(-like) process: Su - Reverse of the above.
Nothing: Ex - If nothing can overcome this type of regeneration, that fact should be a universal maxim extending even to antimagic fields.

[McMahon]You are correct, sir![/McMahon] Thanks for the table, I didn't think to make one myself. It's much clearer than my stream-of-consciousness idea.

In terms of Fast Healing versus Regeneration, the latter is clearly superior since it removes the threat of death from inadequate damage. Fast Healing works to an extent, but once the creature dies the effect stops working; Regen works as long as 100% of the hit points weren't damaged by an adequate type.

That's my take on this, yes. Fast Healing can be more powerful under certain narrow circumstances, but Regeneration is the more powerful of the two overall. Of course, real fun comes from having a creature that has both- like an Uvuudaum. The climactic fight between my Epic party and the Uvuudaum Sorcerer they'd been preparing for for months of game time was a bear and a half to run thanks to having to carefully track which healing went where. :\

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

I saw somewhere or other that if Regeneration becomes impenetrable, for whatever reason, it turns into Fast Healing. If it's not official, it would be a damn sensible houserule.

So you are suggesting if I rule that regeneration is Supernatural I am the big bad wolf, but if we change regeneration altogether if someone shores up their weaknesses (in effect punishing them for their involvement) its somehow a good thing.

So, you admit that D&D physics are substantially different from Real-Life physics?

No. I think they are the same, only less so.

By that I mean clearly the fundamental forces at work are not as strong in a low physical factor universe.

I already illustrated this point on the website at the tail end of the Godzilla stats.

Why? In the D&D setting, with those different physics I mentioned, holy and unholy energy are no more unnatural than, say, a bad sunburn.

They are inherantly unnatural.

I think you are confusing unnatural with uncommon.

Isn't that why you gave those events different types of damage than just fire? Regeneration wouldn't protect from those, especially Con and disintegration.

Debateable.

Con Damage won't last forever and disintegration only breaks down molecular bonds, so if you are regenerating at a molecular level anyway you won't be killed.

Why not? Just call it a special fast healing. Or, when they're reduced to 0 hp and forced into mist, they reform with the limbs upon reaching 1 hp in the coffin. Aren't they supposed to only be vulnerable to certain things?

Certainly there are any number of ways to handle it, I have suggested one way, you have suggested another.

Oh, and don't quote anime to me, Krusty. I refuse to accept it as having any validity in any sort of argument.

Well then how about the official rules for regeneration are broken because they cannot be added to undead without supposedly breaking the system.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi parodox mate!

But my point is still valid- there's nothing inherently supernatural about cellular regrowth.

The idea of someone reforming after being fed through a meat grinder is supernatural in my opinion - because it simply doesn't happen in the natural world.

A true resurrection technology only needs two things; it needs the ability to clone the original body, which we in Earth of 2007 are almost able to do, and the ability to restore the configuration of the mind and memories of the original person into the newly-grown brain. We know the second one will be extraordinarily difficult, but there's no sound reason to believe it's actually forbidden by our physiology or the laws of physics. Simply regrowing the cells is trivial; a "dead body" isn't fully dead for several years after the death of the brain- that's been known for decades. Fingernails and hair still grow in the grave, for example- cells are still alive to accomplish that. Take one of those cells and chemically convince it to start dividing again, and voila: new body parts. Potentially, new body.

Yes...and any sufficiently advanced technology will seem like magic.

So basically what you are arguing is that nothing is supernatural, simply either contemporary or 'advanced'.

So what you're saying is they're supernatural as a result, and thus nanotech will shut down and fail in an Anti-Magic Zone? That is something I will never accept- the whole point of using technology instead of magic is that it works in places where magic doesn't. Perhaps the magic potion applies a similar mechanic in medical terms to speed up healing, when compared with nanites doing the same thing, but the basic power source of the magic potion and how that power source operates to cause the essential effect are radically different. Nanotech-based regeneration must be different from magical healing in that qualitative sense, or the whole basis of comparison between technology and magic goes out the window.

Perhaps technomages have a spell called Electro-Magnetic Field (instead of Anti-Magic Field), which shorts ot the nano-probes?

Does nanotech regen convert to fast healing if the subject is immune to fire and acid?

I think we could settle all this if there was a threshold for physical oblivion. I'm thinking that a single source of damage that deals more than double the targets maximum hit points score will vapourise enough of the creature that even regeneration will prove ineffective.

Any thoughts?

Well, of course it renders Fast Healing obsolete. Regeneration has always been better in every way, since they introduced the two abilities; Fast Healing was (as I recall) originally introduced in FAQs as "Regeneration Lite." It was specifically designed to be a lesser version of Regeneration for creatures which were supposed to be less powerful than those like, say, Pit Fiends.

IMO it makes sense to declare Regeneration a Supernatural ability when it is overcome by alignment-based damage, or some other esoteric magical effect (for example, Bane weapons or Cursed weapons). Regeneration which is overcome by a specific material represents a sort of allergy, as WarDragon said, and the actual source of said allergy is irrelevant- the allergy itself is a natural function of the creature's body and the Regeneration is thus Extraordinary. And of course, Regeneration which is overcome by energy, like Fire or Acid, is Extraordinary because presumably those energy types destroy the cells and prevent them from dividing to produce new ones. Finally, regeneration which can't be overcome at all- like the Tarrasque- is also Extraordinary, because that's how nanotech Regeneration should logically work.

It helps to keep in mind here that with 3E the designers closed the "silliness loopholes" with such things as chopping a troll up into fifty pieces and thus creating an army of 50 trolls. The troll has to reattach its lost parts if they're still available, or grow new ones while the old ones decay from lack of attachment to its body.

I agree with you that regeneration is multifaceted enough to be broken down into component parts, some of which may be extraordinary, some of which may be supernatural.

Gotcha. Only counts during character creation. That's perfectly fair, and a good yardstick- I'll start using it for my own divine-level NPCs. Particularly that Polychromatic Dragon Sorcerer who's going to be facing down my Epic PCs fairly soon...

Happy to help mate.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CRGreathouse dude!

I completely agree with WarDragon here. I don't think that using anime is a good argument: I'd prefer a stronger something stronger than "I saw it once on this show". Now certainly U_K is free to write it however he wants -- but the more he uses things that don't appeal to his audience the less chance he has of selling them things. In my case I'm very likely to pick up Ascension, whenever it's released, but I may not get the other two parts (Grimoire and Chronicle) depending on how comics/anime heavy they are.

If fairly light, then there'd even be a chance of me getting the Immortal Index series; if not, it would literally be more work than it's worth to rewrite.

Now this is funny. I make an offhand remark about anime and all of a sudden I am writing Ghost in the Shell d20!

I can say that all future Immortals Handbook products will have the same overbearing, all-encompassing anime roots as the Epic Bestiary: Volume One...ie. None that you would notice.

Actually, in my case the comic book pseudo-science bothers me more than anime, but I don't like either.

Well you better email WotC about it then, because they are the ones who determined the low physical factor 'physics' of D&D. Not me.