Incantatrix help/opinions

[Victor Ograygor]

1. First thanks allot for u´r help all

2. Is this true?
Persistent Spell on u´r self
1. level Spell - DC of (18 + 3x (1+6) = 39).
2. level Spell - DC of (18 + 3x (2+6) = 42).
3. level Spell - DC of (18 + 3x (3+6) = 45).
4. level Spell - DC of (18 + 3x (4+6) = 48).
5. level Spell - DC of (18 + 3x (5+6) = 51).
6. level Spell - DC of (18 + 3x (6+6) = 54).

Extend Spell on u´r self
1. level Spell - DC of (18 + 3x (1+1) = 24).
2. level Spell - DC of (18 + 3x (2+1) = 27).
3. level Spell - DC of (18 + 3x (3+1) = 30).
4. level Spell - DC of (18 + 3x (4+1) = 33).
5. level Spell - DC of (18 + 3x (5+1) = 36).
6. level Spell - DC of (18 + 3x (6+1) = 39).

I am going to kill the 2 black dragons from 4 from cormyr (FR), but need some good spell´s with max dammage. Plz help

5 level wiz and 7 level Incantatar - 12 caster with
Arcane thesis (player 2) page 74
Twin spell
Quicken spell
Sudden Max spell

 

[Thanee]

DCs are right, yes.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Victor Ograygor]

Whenever the incantatrix uses a metamagic feat, the required increase in spell level is reduced by one (minimum +1 spell level).

Not whenever the incantatrix casts a spell with metamagic, but whenever she uses a metamagic feat... when the incantatrix casts a spell altered by two metamagic feats, she uses a metamagic feat two times, so the IM ability kicks in twice as well.

okay that is that, but what abaut the feat : Arcane thesis in player 2

It say in player 2
Choose one arcane spell that you can cast to be your thesis spell. When casting that spell, you do so at +2 caster level, whaen you aplay metamagic feat other than heighten spell to that spell, the enhanced spell uses up a spell slot one level lower than normal

do this stack ?

 

[KarinsDad]

1. First thanks allot for u´r help all

2. Is this true?
Persistent Spell on u´r self
1. level Spell - DC of (18 + 3x (1+6) = 39).
2. level Spell - DC of (18 + 3x (2+6) = 42).
3. level Spell - DC of (18 + 3x (3+6) = 45).
4. level Spell - DC of (18 + 3x (4+6) = 48).
5. level Spell - DC of (18 + 3x (5+6) = 51).
6. level Spell - DC of (18 + 3x (6+6) = 54).

Extend Spell on u´r self
1. level Spell - DC of (18 + 3x (1+1) = 24).
2. level Spell - DC of (18 + 3x (2+1) = 27).
3. level Spell - DC of (18 + 3x (3+1) = 30).
4. level Spell - DC of (18 + 3x (4+1) = 33).
5. level Spell - DC of (18 + 3x (5+1) = 36).
6. level Spell - DC of (18 + 3x (6+1) = 39).

I am going to kill the 2 black dragons from 4 from cormyr (FR), but need som good spell´s with max dammage. Plz help

5 level wiz and 7 level Incantatar - 12 caster with
Arcane thesis (player 2) page 74
Twin spell
Quicken spell
Sudden Max spell

You are not going to kill those black dragons with Cooperative Metamagic. Your buddy is going to kill them (maybe).

This seems like a poor way to take on a Dragon.

Instead of you casting a spell at a Dragon and your buddy casting a spell at it, your buddy is going to cast a metamagic spell at it and you are not going to cast anything.

Cooperative Metamagic is good ahead of time for buff spells and the like, but not as good in combat since you give up two actions for one superior action.

Whenever the incantatrix uses a metamagic feat, the required increase in spell level is reduced by one (minimum +1 spell level).

Not whenever the incantatrix casts a spell with metamagic, but whenever she uses a metamagic feat... when the incantatrix casts a spell altered by two metamagic feats, she uses a metamagic feat two times, so the IM ability kicks in twice as well.

okay that is that, but what abaut the feat : Arcane thesis in player 2

It say in player 2
Choose one arcane spell that you can cast to be your thesis spell. When casting that spell, you do so at +2 caster level, whaen you aplay metamagic feat other than heighten spell to that spell, the enhanced spell uses up a spell slot one level lower than normal

do this stack ?

First off, Improved Metamagic does not occur until the Incantatrix is 10th level. The PC you are discussing is 3 levels away from that.

Also, as a DM, I would not let these stack. It can be way too abusive. However, literally according to RAW, they probably do stack.

-1 level is really potent. -2 levels could be really devastating when a PC eventually has 4 potent metamagic feats on his Cone of Cold.

At 15th level with 8th level spells, that means that a PC could have 15D6 Empowered Maximized Repeat Cone of Cold. So, 116 average points of damage on round one followed by 116 average points of damage in round two for anyone still in the area or who entered the area in the meantime. All from one spell. I would not allow this. YMMV.

 

[Victor Ograygor]

Force orb is a dragon slayer spell... ?

hmm..-2 on each metamagic feat isent devastating. it´s only on one spell!

THe Incantatar is a specialist in metamagic feat´s u see, a normal wizard with Arcane thesis (player 2) page 74 get -1 on one spell?

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plz tell me do i have to tell dm where the channeled Pyroburst (complete arcane ) are going to land before ore after i cast the spel.

what do u say THANEE ?

 

[KarinsDad]

hmm..-2 on each metamagic feat isent devastating. it´s only on one spell!

THe Incantatar is a specialist in metamagic feat´s u see, a normal wizard with Arcane thesis (player 2) page 74 get -1 on one spell?

It depends on how you interpret Arcane Thesis. If it is -2 per metamagic feat when combined with Improved Metamagic, then it is broken because there are a lot of ways to abuse it. It does not matter is Arcane Thesis is for only a single spell. If that one spell can be turned into a powerhouse nightmare, then there is a problem.

A potential 232 points of damage per target from a single spell at 15th level means an average of 15.5 points of damage per level if both saves are failed (i.e. insta-kill for almost all enemies unless they are immune to cold), ~12 points of damage if one save is failed and the other is made (still pretty deadly), and ~8 points of damage if both saves are made (which is still pretty auto-deadly to arcane types like Wizards, Bards, and Sorcerers).

Think about it. Not every opponent will be in such an area of effect both rounds, but this is basically death for the vast majority of creatures that are. Most creatures will on average fail one saving throw and make the other and still die. And some creatures will die even if they make both saves. And, that is for creatures at full hit points.

The example I gave does have a limitation (i.e. you have to be in the area both rounds for it to work fully), but there are battlefield control spells that can pretty much ensure that. Balance is not just about what works on its own, but what works when combined with other rules.

Note: I think there is a Sticky Feat that can be added to this that entangles creatures hit by the spell. So as a 9th level spell, you could have a 15D6 Sticky Repeating Empowered Maximized Cone of Cold which is almost auto-death against most opponents (except Rogues, creatures with Freedom of Movement, creatures immune to cold, or until high Epic levels). Yikes!

If the DM pulled this stunt against the PCs with a single spell, do you think the players would consider this balanced and fair? If not, why should a PC get to do it?

 

[Mistwell]

I would even go so far, that it should be impossible (regardless of what you use) to cast a spell of a modified level higher than the highest you can currently cast normally. Same with modifying spell effects, of course, like with the Metamagic Effect ability.

This limitation - incidentally - has been introduced with the original 3E Incantatrix (the errata put this limitation on Instant Metamagic; same as with the revised prestige class writeup in PGtF, where it also only made it into the errata), but they seem to have forgotten about it, when they were writing up things like Divine Metamagic or revising (or rather not) the metamagic rods.

Bye
Thanee

I agree, with the possible exception of the one-time-a-day spontaneous metamagic feats (since I think a feat to do it once a day is enough cost to break that limit).

 

[Mistwell]

It depends on how you interpret Arcane Thesis. If it is -2 per metamagic feat when combined with Improved Metamagic, then it is broken because there are a lot of ways to abuse it. It does not matter is Arcane Thesis is for only a single spell. If that one spell can be turned into a powerhouse nightmare, then there is a problem.

A potential 232 points of damage per target from a single spell at 15th level means an average of 15.5 points of damage per level if both saves are failed (i.e. insta-kill for almost all enemies unless they are immune to cold), ~12 points of damage if one save is failed (still pretty deadly) and the other is made, and ~8 points of damage if both saves are made (which is still pretty auto-deadly to arcane types like Wizards, Bards, and Sorcerers).

Think about it. Not every opponent will be in such an area of effect both rounds, but this is basically death for the vast majority of creatures that are. Most creatures will on average fail one saving throw and make the other and still die. And some creatures will die even if they make both saves. And, that is for creatures at full hit points.

The example I gave does have a limitation (i.e. you have to be in the area both rounds for it to work fully), but there are battlefield control spells that can pretty much ensure that. Balance is not just about what works on its own, but what works when combined with other rules.

Wait until you combine Halruaan Elder PRC into the mix (from FR: Shining South)

 

[Question]

I find the incantatrix PRC funny. Its supposedly a PRC focusing on metamagic, and the level 8 ability certaintly is......but all the way up till then its more like a class focusing on banishing outsiders or attacking ethereal targets, which makes no sense at all. Halruaan elder is better at metamagic mastery, funningly enough, but it requires co-operative spell(sub-optimal feat for most adventuring groups) and has circle magic mechanics(how often does a adventuring party get to use circle magic?).

 

[Thanee]

You might want to check out the current Incantatrix rules.

Bye
Thanee