D&D 5E Is 5E Special

[Parmandur]

I just don't see it as remotely controversial to suggest that WotC books sell a lot because they're the official books. The fact that 5e is so widespread makes their books have higher intrinsic value than a comparable 3pp book, regardless of quality, simply because the barriers to use it (and discuss it) are so much lower.

Sure, absolutely it would sell more than if Kobold Press released it: that doesn't mean that it would sell well.

A book with 4 new classes of popular archetypes would sell more that a player book with few player options in a niche genre.

How is "Harry Potter D&D" in any meaningful way "niche"? And I see no market reason to believe that is true.

i assume the reason they don't mind 3rd parties and the DMs guild is because they want to have us get our hands on things that they don't find it worth publishing...

if 100 people want a redone magic of incarnum wotc doesn't want to waste time and money on it... but If I sold 100 copies on the DMs guild I would be happy

Bingo.

If you make a claim, and then later, when called on the first claim, make a different claim and try to pretend that was what you were claiming all along, that is moving the goalposts. Also, trying to pretend that PHB3 is some obscure splat on the level of MoI is not classy.

At the end of the day, if you do not know much about 4e (or Magic of Incarnum), maybe don't make pronouncements about it on the Internet?

I mean, the PHB3 isn't relevant to how people perceive 4E, because most people wouldn't know about it. I'm sorry, that just how it is. I am just talking core versus core, and the latter splats aren't core. I haven't been bringing in Xanathar's or Tasha's up Jeremy for that reason.

 

[Vaalingrade]

They would not have in the age of the internet

Printers and iPhones don't exist anymore. Got it.

~chugs actually rotten pink sauce sold by tiktokers~

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yes and part of the reason WotC has such a huge difference is their ability to read their market and cater to it...

And their wisdom in supporting 3pp and not trying to compete with them.

As much as I’d love a warlord and a swordmage, and I will always advocate for their place in the core, it’s not a bad business decision to leave them for 3pp.

Every licensed rpg that uses 5e gets new people interested in core D&D. Wizards just needs to keep focusing on the core audience, and not try to branch off into super niche stuff that 3pp are going to have the freedom to do right anyway.

 

[Imaro]

I don't agree with this. First, no third party product is going to sell as well as even the worst D&D book put out by WotC. They simply don't have the resources, name recognition or advertising network. Second, third party products have a built in stigma with some people. I know that I personally automatically view them with suspicion, because there's no way that they playtested the material as well as WotC and don't have access to the exact game math. Third, they are mixed in with 10 bazillion other third party products and you have to slog through those products looking for that diamond in the rough.

I'm confused what part you don't agree with. That WotC doesn't feel it's worth the investment?

 

[Maxperson]

I'm confused what part you don't agree with. That WotC doesn't feel it's worth the investment?

Yes. That WotC wouldn't feel that it's worth the investment based on how well a 3rd party product is doing. WotC may very well feel that it's worth the investment, but they have it planned to be announced 18 months from now. The 3rd party guy just got there first. Maybe they didn't even consider the idea until they saw the 3rd party person do it.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Good thing letting third parties do better design than the core they're building off of has never come back to bite WotC in particular before.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Printers and iPhones don't exist anymore. Got it.

~chugs actually rotten pink sauce sold by tiktokers~

I think someone beat me to it: the equation changes when there aren’t any alternatives.

Additionally, iPhones last years. I don’t buy a car or iPhone expecting a lifetime of use. Years is acceptable to me. Maybe that is not a common expectation?

My point is this: the core books are all over. Discussions like this are all over. There are alternatives a plenty for the entertainment dollar.

If a game is not well liked and has baggage people will find out in a decade. But sales have increased.

It’s amorphous maybe but people seem to enjoy the feel of 5e. And maybe there are more elegant systems in the marketplace.

It meets a need. There might be cleaner and more “realistic.” No debate there. But what do people want?

I don’t buy the brand loyalty thing past a certain point. It will get you a start but not this. I don’t buy the fact that people just don’t know any better. Don’t the fans know what they want? Why would someone else know better?

So the one remaining hurdle to accepting what seems to be on its face reality is the external shocks to the market. So do i believe COVID and such fully explain 5e success? No.

If we did a multiple regression on sales I am sure we would find a number of variables contribute to the sales. But I think a large chunk of variance is accounted for by people liking this specific edition of the game.

 

[Minigiant]

I think a book with a Summoner class, A Beastmster class, an artificer reprint, a new caster, and a new martial would sell better than most setting books.

Not releasing new classes was a choice to not be beholden to a rapid schedule of the past. But in that choice, they have crawled into getting to many traditional and nontraditional classes, subclasses, monsters, and options.

The "Well the only things worth it for WOTC to publish were published" is a sill argument. By that logic WOTC shouldn't have made TCOE because I designed a horizon walker class on my own. I'm sure many of the official mechanics and products were made by 3PPs before WOTC got to them .

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I don't think it's particularly controversial to suggest that WotC released too much mechanical material during the 3.5 era, which started to dilute the impact any one book might have had. A "Book of Incarnum" for 5e would almost certainly outsell the 3.5 version.

And yes, even WotC can put something out for 5e and have it not sell if it's poorly targeted. If WotC put out the "Complete Book of Flumphs" as the Winter 2023 hardcover, it's not going to sell anywhere near as well as a Planescape or Dark Sun or a new Magic setting book is.

I just don't see it as remotely controversial to suggest that WotC books sell a lot because they're the official books. The fact that 5e is so widespread makes their books have higher intrinsic value than a comparable 3pp book, regardless of quality, simply because the barriers to use it (and discuss it) are so much lower.

But that doesn’t mean, even if we just accept it without question, that wizards is losing money by not trying to put out every single thing that any noticeable number of people want.

Not only do they take 1/2 with DMsGuild, but even the products they don’t get a cut of grow the market, which grows D&D. They’re symbiotic.

 

[TwoSix]

But that doesn’t mean, even if we just accept it without question, that wizards is losing money by not trying to put out every single thing that any noticeable number of people want.

Not only do they take 1/2 with DMsGuild, but even the products they don’t get a cut of grow the market, which grows D&D. They’re symbiotic.

Oh, absolutely. My only point is that WotC books sell because they're part of a broader ecosystem built around official material, their sales numbers do not indicate a referendum that WotC books are obviously higher quality than comparable 3pp material, as some previous posts seemed to allude to.

 

[Parmandur]

I think a book with a Summoner class, A Beastmster class, an artificer reprint, a new caster, and a new martial would sell better than most setting books.

Not releasing new classes was a choice to not be beholden to a rapid schedule of the past. But in that choice, they have crawled into getting to many traditional and nontraditional classes, subclasses, monsters, and options.

The "Well the only things worth it for WOTC to publish were published" is a sill argument. By that logic WOTC shouldn't have made TCOE because I designed a horizon walker class on my own. I'm sure many of the official mechanics and products were made by 3PPs before WOTC got to them .

On what grounds do you believe that? The people with sales data appear not to believe that, and I see no reason they have to act against their interests.

 

[pumasleeve]

I think the actual rules of 5E are a small factor. According to wotc data the average campaign lasts 6 sessions. Call me crazy but I think that most of the folks into dnd now may like playing the game, but what they really like is to talk dnd, watch dnd, and basically feel like they are part of something larger than themselves. Many people I know devote much more time to watching podcasts than actually playing the game themselves. Books are selling like never before but that doesnt necessarily translate into butts in seats at a gaming table on an ongoing basis. So while agree that the rules are more accessable and therefor easier to get into, i dont think that is a large part responsible for the games popularity

 

[Imaro]

Yes. That WotC wouldn't feel that it's worth the investment based on how well a 3rd party product is doing. WotC may very well feel that it's worth the investment, but they have it planned to be announced 18 months from now. The 3rd party guy just got there first. Maybe they didn't even consider the idea until they saw the 3rd party person do it.

All I can say to this is that it may not be the ONLY deciding factor but I'm sure if a 3PP product they planned for 18 months out was doing horribly it would be noticed and could affect their decisions. I find it hard to believe they aren't aware at least at a high level of complementary products to 5e from other publishers and which categories seem to sell the best.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Why? Why do you have no doubt? Is there some kind of market research to suggest this? Will it sell more than something they could divert those resources to?

EDIT: Just trying to understand the mentality of second guessing (with such confidence) a company that has, for all intents and purposes, struck gold with its product when it comes to sales.

Next up Levi’s—-the century old accident.

In seriousness though people are right to point out multiple variables as they relate to sales. But at a certain point…

 

[Warpiglet-7]

I think the actual rules of 5E are a small factor. According to wotc data the average campaign lasts 6 sessions. Call me crazy but I think that most of the folks into dnd now may like playing the game, but what they really like is to talk dnd, watch dnd, and basically feel like they are part of something larger than themselves. Many people I know devote much more time to watching podcasts than actually playing the game themselves. Books are selling like never before but that doesnt necessarily translate into butts in seats at a gaming table on an ongoing basis. So while agree that the rules are more accessable and therefor easier to get into, i dont think that is a large part responsible for the games popularity

That is interesting. Here I am on break posting about and not playing D&D!

I spend more time thinking about and pouring over books that I do playing, it’s true—but not by choice.

I think what you said otherwise maybe has some significance. Most people don’t play to high level. Maybe there would be some shift if they did.

But if they were hooked long enough to do so, assuming something there they connect with.

 

[Parmandur]

Good thing letting third parties do better design than the core they're building off of has never come back to bite WotC in particular before.

Only when WotC changed the core and cut off the OGL. Notice how important the OGL and DMsGuild are to WotC now and how emphatic they are about backwards compatibility. That's what bit them in the ass before.

 

[Maxperson]

All I can say to this is that it may not be the ONLY deciding factor but I'm sure if a 3PP product they planned for 18 months out was doing horribly it would be noticed and could affect their decisions. I find it hard to believe they aren't aware at least at a high level of complementary products to 5e from other publishers and which categories seem to sell the best.

Why would a 3rd party product doing horribly have any impact at all on WotC? Putting out a platinum work on DMsGuild is just 1000 copies sold. Everything 3rd party does horribly compared to WotC.

 

[Imaro]

Why would a 3rd party product doing horribly have any impact at all on WotC? Putting out a platinum work on DMsGuild is just 1000 copies sold. Everything 3rd party does horribly compared to WotC.

And I'm sure WotC can account for scale. Do you really believe they aren't aware or purposefully ignore the more popular products made by other companies for 5e? There have been multi-million dollar kickstarters for 5e, and you're telling me no one at WotC paid them any mind. I find that logic hard to follow.

 

[Minigiant]

And I'm sure WotC can account for scale. Do you really believe they aren't aware or purposefully ignore the more popular products made by other companies for 5e? There have been multi-million dollar kickstarters for 5e, and you're telling me no one at WotC paid them any mind. I find that logic hard to follow.

The issue isn't that WOTC doesn't see it.

The issue is that WOTC decided in 2014 to do a very slow release schedule with alot of ideas crossed off the list of possibilities and stuck to it. The way 5e is released, they has to be big ideas they're missing out on making oodles of cash on.

However they have decided to stick with the plan. I mean it took them 6 years to "fix" the ranger because they had a policy that they wouldn't edit the PHB or DMG except to clarify completely broken or confusing rules.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Exactly. It's the presence of 3pp that's keeping me within the 5e ecosystem. Since I'm still in the 5e ecosystem, I'm playing with plenty of newer players who also then buy PHBs.

I know of 5 PHBs, and a few other WotC releases, that have sold in the past 3 years that were sold because I'm playing and running 5e. And without 3pp, I wouldn't be.

Hell yeah.

Artificer+ Summoner+Headmaster+Warlord would sell more than Strixhaven

You don’t know that, nor do you know how that, along with 5 extra books a year in general, would impact core book sales and the health of the community around the game overall.

Oh, absolutely. My only point is that WotC books sell because they're part of a broader ecosystem built around official material, their sales numbers do not indicate a referendum that WotC books are obviously higher quality than comparable 3pp material, as some previous posts seemed to allude to.

Sure. We are on two separate discussion tracks, I think, but mostly in agreement.

So while agree that the rules are more accessable and therefor easier to get into, i dont think that is a large part responsible for the games popularity

I think it’s be wild to suggest that the rules aren’t part of why 5e is being treated that way, socially.

I also disagree that most consumers of D&D products aren’t playing much.