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D&D 5E Is Tasha's Broken?

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
There's an additional limit to "the gm can send more dragons" that I don't think I've seen come up in the thread. Going with higher CR monsters & higher CR encounters carries a laundry list of issues with each. Simply adding more lower CR monsters as bounded accuracy was intended to do ignores the fact that the GM is a human not an computer AI routine:
  • The Players & GM only have so much table time & each additional monster has a turn that extends how long combat takes. This one is minor but notable when it comes to 5e combat feeling like an endless slog
  • The GM needs to track each monster in the initiative order, if a group of 4-5 need 2-3+ monsters per player to be challenged under the design of the game there is a serious problem
    • Wotc/Wizkids doesn't make minis with enough specificity to differentiate so you wind up with zombie 1 through zombie 15+
    • Digital tabletops can help with colored rings & such but when you need to move beyond primary colors into multiple variant shades you hit "which green one?... no that's teal" type problems
 

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James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
There's an additional limit to "the gm can send more dragons" that I don't think I've seen come up in the thread. Going with higher CR monsters & higher CR encounters carries a laundry list of issues with each. Simply adding more lower CR monsters as bounded accuracy was intended to do ignores the fact that the GM is a human not an computer AI routine:
  • The Players & GM only have so much table time & each additional monster has a turn that extends how long combat takes. This one is minor but notable when it comes to 5e combat feeling like an endless slog
  • The GM needs to track each monster in the initiative order, if a group of 4-5 need 2-3+ monsters per player to be challenged under the design of the game there is a serious problem
    • Wotc/Wizkids doesn't make minis with enough specificity to differentiate so you wind up with zombie 1 through zombie 15+
    • Digital tabletops can help with colored rings & such but when you need to move beyond primary colors into multiple variant shades you hit "which green one?... no that's teal" type problems
My group solved this by making colored and dual-colored rings with pipe cleaners that we put on enemies to tell them apart and indicated status effects.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
sorry, i'm not quite up on the terminology, what does 'it's just an elf game' mean? asking this genuinely.

It's a reference to how elves, for some mysterious reason, have bunches and bunches and bunches of subraces, each with different ASIs, so that you can likely play some kind of elf and still get the exact ASIs you want. Alternatively, if you really want particular ASIs, under the pre-Tasha's system, you might have to play some kind of elf, even if you didn't like elves all that much.

Its a way to refute any serious discussion of a fantasy topic, by claiming that its all made up anyway so none of it matters, or equating a discussion of aspects of the game as a real life discussion, thus making it ridiculous.
It's "pretend-elf game" and I use it to point out that the game we're talking about is a creative act of fiction, and that in pretend lots of things can happen that we can justify in many ways. Usually this is brought out to arguments that the only possible way things can happen is in a particular imagining of a specific cause-effect process and that no other ways make sense. Well, we're pretending, and we have elves (which don't exist) and I can imagine quite a number of other ways, so...

As for "infinite dragons" I use this to say why should I care if the players roflstomp this dragon? I have more. It's a point that you shouldn't be wedded to the idea that this encounter needs to come out in that way, because the game doesn't really hinge on this one (and probably shouldn't) -- you always have more you can do.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
My group solved this by making colored and dual-colored rings with pipe cleaners that we put on enemies to tell them apart and indicated status effects.
That doesn't really solve it so much as help mitigate some of the problems caused by having to track too many monsters on the battlefield
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
When an element makes tthe game play differently, changes challlenge dramatically, or shifts which elements are important, it is broken.
I don't agree with that. It makes it different, and you might have to adjust a bit, but it's not broken. Broken is something you can't handle without demolishing everyone else at the table. Either the broken ability walks all over you, or you walk all over most of the party. That's a break, because the game doesn't work. What you are describing above is a game that still works, but just works differently.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I just need to look at Inspiring leader feat and then to twilight cleric, and it's enough to see it's completely broken.

1 Action vs. 10 mins activation
6 targets vs. how much you can fit into 30ft radius
1 instance of temp HP per vs up to 10 instances(yes, I know that in most fights it wont be 10 instances, but even 3 or 4 rounds with 1 or max 2 characters utilizing it puts the inspiring leader feat to shame)
One usage per short rest vs. multiple at later levels and/or items
They shouldn't be comparable. No feat should be worth as much as a major class feature, and Channel Divinity is a major feature of Clerics. A feat should be worth a minor class feature and Inspiring Leader is about as good as Vigilant Blessing or Steps of Night.
 

Horwath

Legend
They shouldn't be comparable. No feat should be worth as much as a major class feature, and Channel Divinity is a major feature of Clerics. A feat should be worth a minor class feature and Inspiring Leader is about as good as Vigilant Blessing or Steps of Night.
that is true.

however, some channel divinities are one of the most powerful abilities and some make rangers feel not so bad with their favored enemy.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
1d8+2 is pretty rough. I can almost see how a player might be like "eh, if I had 20 Strength I'd do, what, 3 more damage?" and maybe ignoring Dueling Style because +2 damage isn't as cool to them as +1 AC or the ability to impose disadvantage to enemy attacks...but yeah. I'd really be curious to know what they were going for if I saw a build like that.
My point is that "bad" is relative to the other characters perhaps, but they're still able to contribute meaningfully in combat. The game is far more forgiving in 5e and 1d8+2 will still help, especially since it's going to be for 2 attacks at 9th level, plus other class abilities. A Paladin is still going to be smiting. The Fighter will still have Action Surge, Superiority Dice, Improved Critical or spells.

You just can't make a truly bad character like you could in 3e short of sticking 5s in primary stats, and even then class abilities would mitigate that to a large degree.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
in this case the newbie didn't have any advice at all. He was told (as was the whole table) "just play concept what do you WANT to be" and a sorcerer with a big sword sounded cool... he even had a pop culture refrence (but one I ddin't get) for it

I will take that and raise you the online game I am in now... where we started at level 1 got all our gear taken and now at level 4 still don't have our starting gear back. we have 2 main line fighters, a fighter (weapon master) and a Paladin (I think crown)... the paliden is an elf and went a dex build but the fighter went pure str. the weapons we have found have been a polearm that weapon master uses (1d10+4) and the long sword the paliden uses (1d8+1) mean while if the paliden could get a short sword he would deal 1d6+4... heck with a whip or dagger (I keep agreeing we should be able to make a make shift whip even stuck in ravenloft) he would deal 1d4+4 and hit more accurately.

then again our wizard is MORE SOL because she has not been able to learn or prep spells in 3 levels so even though she has 2nd level slots she doesn't know any 2nd level spells and only knows what she had prepped when we went to bed day 1 cause without a book she can't prep.
How forgiving is the DM? If you can find something to improvise that's close in structure to a dagger, short sword or rapier, you might be able to improvise a dex weapon and get that d4+4 or even d6+4 that way.
 


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