D&D General Maybe I was ALWAYs playing 4e... even in 2e

Ah yes. "I'm the sophisticated connoisseur unlike you plebs" argument. Classic.
as oppsed to the guy coming into the thread to tell people not to make the thread, and go away...
Michelin star restaurants are hella rare
I didin't know that. I figured the tire company puts out books every year so they have to be adding every year, and I have seen so many cooking shows refrence the tire award that I asssumed there were alot.
and usually pretty damn expensive.
that can't be true I have seen them on drive ins and dives with the weird guy and the help show with the mean guy... no way all of them are expensive.
4e's position in its time was similar to the other editions. And it bombed..
no it didnt'

I hope everyone on this board and everyone they know someday see 1/2 the success of the things they say bombed (billion dollar movies, top tier games, best selling books ect.)
 

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maybe he thinks I figured out the trick... he complaned through 4e and got 5e and now fears us getting 6e made for us.
I don't hate 4e and I didn't do much complaining (I mean sure, I had issues with it, but I've had some issues with every edition.) I played it quite a lot and if I had to choose, I'd say it is my second favourite edition (at least in "would you actually play it" sense rather than nostalgia good feels sense,) and there are certain things in it I wish 5e had retained. (Though overall I easily prefer 5e.) But it is not about my feelings, or yours; it just happens that it is the edition that made the brand crash and 5e is on that made it soar. And I doubt WotC is gonna forget that.
 

I don't hate 4e and I didn't do much complaining (I mean sure, I had issues with it, but I've had some issues with every edition.)
and yet here you are still thread capping
I played it quite a lot and if I had to choose, I'd say it is my second favourite edition (at least in "would you actually play it" sense rather than nostalgia good feels sense,) and there are certain things in it I wish 5e had retained. (Though overall I easily prefer 5e.) But it is not about my feelings, or yours; it just happens that it is the edition that made the brand crash and 5e is on that made it soar. And I doubt WotC is gonna forget that.
again I hope you see the success of at least 1/2 of 4e someday
 

James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
I don't hate 4e and I didn't do much complaining (I mean sure, I had issues with it, but I've had some issues with every edition.) I played it quite a lot and if I had to choose, I'd say it is my second favourite edition (at least in "would you actually play it" sense rather than nostalgia good feels sense,) and there are certain things in it I wish 5e had retained. (Though overall I easily prefer 5e.) But it is not about my feelings, or yours; it just happens that it is the edition that made the brand crash and 5e is on that made it soar. And I doubt WotC is gonna forget that.
You know that brings up an interesting topic for discussion. Why did 3.5 end anyways? Were sales dipping? Did the developers just want to do something new?

Or was the OGL and all the various "d20" games put out by other companies cutting into profits?

What would D&D be like if they hadn't made 4e at all, and continued with 3.5?
 

You know that brings up an interesting topic for discussion. Why did 3.5 end anyways? Were sales dipping? Did the developers just want to do something new?
I think it was mostly that. The edition was starting to get pretty bloated, but solving that didn't need such a drastic reboot.

Or was the OGL and all the various "d20" games put out by other companies cutting into profits?
Also a possibility.

What would D&D be like if they hadn't made 4e at all, and continued with 3.5?
Isn't Pathfinder basically that?
 


James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
Yes but what I'm saying is, would we have 5e the way it is now? How would the current version of D&D be different, if at all?

EDIT: Some aspects of 4e design remain, if altered. And the "back to basics" approach of 5e was obviously a reaction to changing the game too much, pushing it towards some future design the world wasn't completely ready for.

But if there was no 4e, the game wouldn't look like 5e or even Pathfinder 2.0, most likely. So would it be a streamlined, improved 3e? Or something else entirely?
 


Yes but what I'm saying is, would we have 5e the way it is now?
every time travel story ever tells me that a minor change like 3.5 staying in print leads to the worst time line. Plagues, despots, threat of or out right nuke war... wait Do I live in the worst time line!?!

What time Traveler stepped on a butterfly?
 

James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
every time travel story ever tells me that a minor change like 3.5 staying in print leads to the worst time line. Plagues, despots, threat of or out right nuke war... wait Do I live in the worst time line!?!

What time Traveler stepped on a butterfly?
Lol, maybe. As Snarf Zagyg pointed out in their recent thread, the problem with the "road not taken" is you can't go back.

But if 5e exists as a reaction to both 4e and Pathfinder, a world where neither exists is interesting. It could lead to a different version of Pathfinder, a sort of alternate universe 3.75 that has a goatee...but would some other game have risen to force WotC to change things?

I'm looking around and I'm not sure. Blades in the Dark? New Call of Cthulhu? New Cyberpunk? New Vampire?

(An awful lot of new versions of older games out there these days!)

Heck, maybe that's the answer. Nostalgia leads WotC to Old School Revivals, and the "5e" of the alternate timeline is full of rambling purple prose and strange, arcane rules strewn about haphazardly...
 

Mannahnin

Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
Don't you have the books, pen and paper?
One other element that hinders folks from enjoying it and recruiting new players is the loss of support for the universally-loved Character Builder software. The one* piece of the suite of electronic tools that were intended to support the edition that really worked as intended. Folks loved that thing. Folks loved using it to build characters. They willingly paid for an ongoing subscription to it so they didn't have to buy and flip through all the books (though most folks still bought some) and just for its ease-of-use and printable character sheets with customization and power and equipment cards.

An element of 4E's demise (and before that, failure to thrive like it was meant to) that has to be acknowledged is the failure of the electronic side of it. The world literally was not ready for the VTT experience 4E was designed to natively support. WotC accurately saw how great and important VTT play would become. They recognized the desire people had, have, and would have for a way to play with one's friends and family scattered all around the country and the world. A ton of people get into the game when they're young and have a lot of free time, especially in school years (including college/university), then wind up dropping out of active play when work, family needs, or other time-consuming priorities cause their group to split up. Some of those folks keep buying books (at least for a while) despite not being able** to play anymore. But many of them simply drop out, though some come back later.

One silver lining to the pandemic for many of us has been finally biting the bullet and playing online. Is it the same as playing in the same room as your best friends, sharing snacks and laughs and beer? Absolutely not. It's got its technical challenges and annoyances. It requires some prep and overhead. But is it a way we can easily play when we otherwise couldn't? Very much so. Whether our desire is to play a less-popular game or edition, or just to play again with friends scattered across different time zones, or to squeeze a game in on a week night when we have a kid sleeping in the next room, no babysitter, and can't spare the time or physical displacement to drive to a game at someone else's house, VTTs let us play.

WotC planned 4E to fill this need. The intent wasn't just to have a character builder, monster builder and online rules compendium. The intent was to have a full VTT with 3D character, monster and terrain images, viewable in first-person and overhead perspectives. With light/visibility controls for each player based on what their character could see. Similar to what Roll20 does, but with 3D graphics.

And the rules were designed to work with this platform. The way the powers were written in clear, keyworded, easily-parsed language was meant to be implemented easily by the software. The way feats and powers were conditional based on range and distance from the origin? Would have been easily managed by the software as well. All the little modifiers and opportunity actions which got annoying to remember at high level? Much less of a problem if you're playing online and the VTT reminds you every time.

But unfortunately the vendor WotC chose could not provide what they had promised. The murder/suicide certainly didn't help matters, but given the total failure of the VTT, it's apparent that sufficient time and resources simply had not been devoted to development and coding.

On top of that, I do believe what I wrote above that the world probably wasn't ready. While Roll20 and other online play venues certainly existed before the pandemic, it took a big event like that to make them explode. And it's possible that fourteen years ago not enough RPG players had good enough internet and hardware to support a VTT like WotC was trying to sell anyway. I see enough issues with people just getting Roll20 video to reliably work nowadays.

So when we consider the failures of 4E to live up to expectations, we can certainly consider the marketing issues. And we can consider the thrice-damned GSL. And we can consider the big shifts in the rules and how they went a bridge too far violating "look and feel" for a lot of players. But one factor we definitely shouldn't forget is that one of its biggest features and intended advantages was completely stillborn. Never even saw the light of day. So the 4E we got was always missing something it was supposed to have.

But even aside from that, even stuff like how the powers/rules were laid out was always intended to be regularly used in conjunction with/alongside online tools like the character builder which made it much easier. And again, that's something which doesn't immediately come across if we just look at the rulebooks now.

(*Ok, the monster builder/encounter builder was pretty good too)

(**Some no doubt would be, if they networked around their local gaming store or whatever, but this can be an intimidating social challenge, and many folks struggle to connect with a group like they did with their original group of friends)
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
No we wouldn't. 5e subtly borrows quite a bit from 4e, and they had to go through that station to arrive where they are.
even just the raw numbers under the hood are almost completely 4e divided by 2..
One other element that hinders folks from enjoying it and recruiting new players is the loss of support for the universally-loved Character Builder software. The one* piece of the suite of electronic tools that were intended to support the edition that really worked as intended. Folks loved that thing.
The Offline Character Builder is arguably thriving with fan support.
 




Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
intresting... 10th level in 4e was 1/2 level +5 30th level was +15
5e removed the by level accuracy buff for the most part see below
in 5e prof starts at 2 (so not half 0) and goes to 6... I don't see it.
first of all 4e does not have levels 1 to 4 it starts in heroic.
In effect level 1 4e is level 5 in 5e, Note how hit points of a fighter in 4e at level 1 is around 30

level 5 = level 1 ... level 20 == level 30, its basically 2 levels of 4e equates to 1 level of 5e

5e feats are approximately 2 times a 4e one. (You get them less often)

Your skill if you are proficient in 4e is 5 divide by 2 or 2.5... then there are various skill focus and other ways to buff it. (note that buff may just happen easily if the skill is your secondary or primary attribute and is far more of a buff than the 5e one ie double)
 
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5e removed the by level accuracy buff

first of all 4e does not have levels 1 to 4 it starts in heroic.
In effect level 1 4e is level 5 in 5e, Note how hit points of a fighter in 4e at level 1 is around 30

Your skill if you are proficient in 4e is 5 divide by 2 or 2.5... then there are various skill focus and other ways to buff it.
okay... that is interesting of a way to look at it.

I do start my games at 3rd-5th because it makes it more like 4e, I have to give this some thought
 


5e removed the by level accuracy buff for the most part see below

first of all 4e does not have levels 1 to 4 it starts in heroic.
In effect level 1 4e is level 5 in 5e, Note how hit points of a fighter in 4e at level 1 is around 30

level 5 = level 1 ... level 20 == level 30, its basically 2 levels of 4e equates to 1 level of 5e

5e feats are approximately 2 times a 4e one. (You get them less often)

Your skill if you are proficient in 4e is 5 divide by 2 or 2.5... then there are various skill focus and other ways to buff it.
Though it's worth noting, because 4e does not give +Con mod to HP, 5e HP actually can overtake 4e HP for high-Con characters.

Consider, for example, a Con 16 Fighter. At 1st level in each system, these characters would have...
4e: 15+16 = 31 HP
5e: 10+3 = 13 HP

If we crank it up to level 30, assuming this character only bumps Con to 20 (the max in 5e):
4e: 15+20+29*6 = 209
5e: 10+5+19*11 = 224

Even though the 5e character has fewer HP to start with--less than half!--its HP grows dramatically faster because of adding Con mod. Had the 5e Fighter kept the 16 Con, they'd be a bit below the 4e character...but nowhere near half. (It would be 186 vs 209, a difference of only 23 HP.)

Edit: And, believe it or not, this difference is actually more pronounced for lower-HP characters, because high Con mod makes a bigger impact for them. The main thing separating 4e HP from 5e HP, which is invisible in this analysis, is that 4e characters have healing surges, which simultaneously increase and decrease their total daily HP. A 4e character is effectively not heal-able after they run out of surges; they technically can be healed (especially by daily powers), but effectively they're dry for the day and really, REALLY shouldn't be in combat if they can avoid it. That high Con mod gives an extra 5 healing surges, which is more than a full heal-up (125% of max HP, in theory). A Con 10 character has between 6 and 9 healing surges a day by default (6 for squishies like Wizards, 9 for beefy types like Fighters, with Paladins getting 1 extra surge due to how Lay on Hands works), so an extra 5 is enormous for a Wizard and decent for a Fighter or Paladin.
 
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