D&D General Maybe I was ALWAYs playing 4e... even in 2e

[EzekielRaiden]

Hmm, that's challenging. I see a few constraints here.

1) If you're looking to not represent a tactical challenge, then we're looking for a subsystem where we're not pulling out the battle mat and not using our combat powers. (I think?) The challenge is that if combat powers are usable, why aren't we just starting a combat?
2) If we're not using combat powers, the mechanical levers the players can use are limited to skill checks, utility powers, and possibly theme/PP/ED abilities.
3) To provide a strategic or logistical challenge, some resource of the players needs to be put at risk. That would generally be either healing surges or daily powers. Optionally, success/fail could modify the narrative, changing the shape of the next few encounters in a positive or negative direction. Those kind of rewards/penalties would generally need to be bespoke, as they're harder to generalize. (For example, defeating the small group of bandits leads to the discovery of map leading to a secret entrance into the castle you're trying to infiltrate, meaning the first few encounters in the castle will be less challenging.)
4) I think a more general problem with wandering monsters and minor encounters in general is that 4e pushes to set up scenes that either are a game challenge (high stakes combat or SC) or exist to push the players's narratives. The whole point of minor encounters is to drive verisimilitude (look guys, we're in the forest and we found a BEAR! It's so realistic!), which isn't high on 4e's priority list.

1) Because combat takes a long time. The purpose of these rules is to still be a fight, but to be very, very fast by comparison to proper set pieces.
2) Since I do want to use them, that's kind of an aside.
3) Agreed, though I hope that more can be done, e.g. perhaps re-using the "disease track" rules in some way to cover fatigue or minor injury that don't directly correlate to surges. This part is perhaps the most speculative aspect.
4) As noted, the intent here is in part to just alleviate some (IMO valid) concerns with just how long 4e combats can be, even when you have a group actively trying to avoid delays. By stripping things down to (essentially) 1-2 rolls per player and a simpler set of benefits for expended resources (consumables, daily powers, Action Points, etc.), you can still have conflicts that have relevant stakes and the like, but they're significantly faster to resolve.

Immersion/sim stuff is sort of a hoped-for side benefit, rather than the core. That is, if a sim-favoring player sees these and feels good feels as a result, awesome, but I wouldn't sacrifice the core benefits (rigorous, if much simplified, rules for ultra-fast "combats") in order to pursue that.

 

[TwoSix]

I'd argue that healing word is explicitly healing as are healing potions and some other spells that are so flavoured. In any case, in the narrative the there must be some in-fiction indication of missing HP or otherwise there is no in-character justification for use of HP replenishing things. There must also be some in-character understanding of how these HP restoring things help.

"Plot armour" by definition is not something the characters in the setting can be aware of, nor something that can be replenished via in-fiction resources. That's the crux of my objection.

I can sympathize with that argument. Not going to say this appropriate for everyone, but here's I've been handling hit point rules since late 4e, and I've carried it into 5e (which is pretty similar to 4e in terms of its healing rules).

1) Characters in a fantasy setting (PCs and NPCs) simply heal faster than us weak Earthlings do. Lacerations and bruises heal up in a few hours, broken bones and damaged organs are functional within a few days. Not troll-level regeneration of severed limbs, but just faster healing. Since that's simply part of the setting background, it doesn't really get brought up in the narrative, but a background explanation of "divine blessing", "residual ritual magic", or "alien biology" is good to have for the DM.
(For what it's worth, OSR deity-level designer Kevin Crawford uses very similar logic in his OSR game Worlds without Number, so I feel pretty good about using the same idea.)

2) Hit points represent overall combat readiness and general endurance. Actual health is represented by Healing Surges/Hit Dice. A character mostly depleted of Healing Surges/Hit Dice is generally narrated as bruised and battered, although still ready to fight if needed.

3) Bloodied condition/low HP is generally narrated as the first time the character has taken a real injury. The emotional narrative, that the character is feeling vulnerable, afraid, fatigued, in some pain is generally emphasized.

4) My major house rule is that 0 HP (or below in 4e) doesn't put the character at immediate risk of death. At 0, the character is now not in an emotional/physical state to act (they're briefly stunned, or overwhelmed, or doubled over in pain), although I generally let them take a small action (talking briefly, moving slightly, chugging a potion). The player still rolls death saves, and failing their death saves makes the character fall unconscious. (Once they're unconscious, simply getting the character to positive hit points doesn't remove the condition, they need OOC medical attention, time, or revivify.) Failing death saves due to damage (like if an enemy gives a coup-de-grace, or throws the character into a pit) can cause death.

5) Healing magic and potions are more of an overall cleansing effect with a shot of adrenaline; closing small wounds, numbing larger ones, and providing regained focus and willpower. The major difference between 4e and 5e is that in 5e these effects are purely beneficial, while in 4e they come with a cost of the loss of reserve and general fatigue. (Represented by declining healing surges.)

This doesn't work for everyone, of course, but it's how I've run 4e/5e mostly as-is but also maintained a coherent narrative around injuries and healing magic.

 

[TwoSix]

4) As noted, the intent here is in part to just alleviate some (IMO valid) concerns with just how long 4e combats can be, even when you have a group actively trying to avoid delays. By stripping things down to (essentially) 1-2 rolls per player and a simpler set of benefits for expended resources (consumables, daily powers, Action Points, etc.), you can still have conflicts that have relevant stakes and the like, but they're significantly faster to resolve.

That makes sense. I mean, at its most basic level, it's something like "You encounter 5 hostile bandits. They're lower level, so you drive them off pretty easily. You can make a DC 20 Intimidation check to get them to run. Otherwise, they attack you and the party loses 3 healing surges, divided up as you see fit. If you want, you can spend a daily power instead to make them run without taking any damage. If you want them dead instead of fleeing, spend 2 daily powers."

Which isn't really a subsystem, I guess, more of a mobile trap or hazard? Hmm. Have to think a little more about it.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I see. So you mean the warrior is merely exhausted, and thus a healing potion or spell is applied? Why then the characters do not try similar method to 'heal' exhaustion levels if to them they seem identical than the loss of hit points?

because the exhaustion mechanic and hp mechanics are different.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

2) Hit points represent overall combat readiness and general endurance. Actual health is represented by Healing Surges/Hit Dice. A character mostly depleted of Healing Surges/Hit Dice is generally narrated as bruised and battered, although still ready to fight if needed.

yup... and I take it a step farther (and again have for 20+ years going back to 2e when I must have always been in a 4e mindset as it says on the tin) you can be beat to heck and be at full hp and you can have no visable wounds and have 2hp left

 

[Crimson Longinus]

because the exhaustion mechanic and hp mechanics are different.

How do the characters in the fiction know that? If loss of HP and loss of exhaustion both manifest in fiction as being winded, how can the characters tell these apart?

 

[Vaalingrade]

As MatPat recently explored; sometimes overthinking things does more harm than good.

 

[TwoSix]

yup... and I take it a step farther (and again have for 20+ years going back to 2e when I must have always been in a 4e mindset as it says on the tin) you can be beat to heck and be at full hp and you can have no visable wounds and have 2hp left

I’m not quite as extreme; I generally want characters to be able to discern that other combatants are in good shape or looking shaky. So low HP is when you some cuts and bruises, and the character is looking fatigued and probably nervous/scared.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

yup... and I take it a step farther (and again have for 20+ years going back to 2e when I must have always been in a 4e mindset as it says on the tin) you can be beat to heck and be at full hp and you can have no visable wounds and have 2hp left

Right. So why would you seek healing then, if you're not injured? Hell, why would you be cautious and avoid further risks?

My interpretation is quite the opposite. The loss of HP always indicates some actual injury, albeit not necessarily a serious or well defined one. This helps to better align the character knowledge with player knowledge, which I feel is important.

 

[Vaalingrade]

How do they know when they need to eat vs sleep to avoid Death Spiral Mechanic #175?