(OOC) The Dog Days of Doom

[TaranTheWanderer]

Would you consider giving "battle gauntlets" one of the mastery properties? I decided to try grappler fighter instead of monk, just to see how good it would be.
I could go with "spiked gauntlets" (daggers that aren't throwable), but...punching and grabbing people with steel gauntlets seems more fun and less murder charges in tavern brawls

Let me think about it. Was there a mastery you were thinking of?

 

[Neurotic]

Out of those available:
Vex, Slow, Sap and Topple would represent getting hit with a gauntlet and stunned for the moment, this being expressed by various effects (either short KO where you fall or just enough to grant advantage on the next or you're slowed some or you have disadvantage on the attack)

Push could be useful occasionally, but I already get push from a feat - not sure if they stack and push weapons are also big.
Nick is reserved for small quick weapons. Technically, you don't get much faster than with your hands, but giving a grappler extra attack might be dangerous?

I was looking at the options from staff, club and mace - Graze, Cleave etc...make no sense since they are for big weapons same for Push

I'd rate "the fitness" for the gauntlets like this:
1. Sap (mace)
2. Slow (club)
3. Vex (small, quick weapons)
4. Topple (usually long weapons)

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Would you consider giving "battle gauntlets" one of the mastery properties? I decided to try grappler fighter instead of monk, just to see how good it would be.
I could go with "spiked gauntlets" (daggers that aren't throwable), but...punching and grabbing people with steel gauntlets seems more fun and less murder charges in tavern brawls

Out of curiosity, are you planning on using the gauntlets as weapons or using them for mastery on unarmed strikes? Because there is a logic for the strict demarcation between the melee attacks with weapons v. unarmed strikes in the 5e24 rules. Having gauntlets as weapons is trivial (it's just reskinning), but allowing mastery for unarmed strikes is ... different?

I know you've looked at this, but the rules for grappling/shoving in 5e24 require an unarmed strike ("a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you."). 5e24 (unfortunately, IMO) uses a lot more of the keyword system, and a lot of different abilities, feats, and what not are keyed off the language of "Unarmed Strike."

This ends up causes synergies in some areas- Way of the Elements monks get extended grappling range, because they have extended range to unarmed strikes, and grapples are part of unarmed strikes. Crusher works with unarmed strikes, since the language applies to an attack that deals bludgeoning damage (unless you're a monk dealing force damage). But other things are not allowed to work with an unarmed strike- you cannot use true strike (requires a weapon) or weapon masteries (requires a weapon) with an unarmed strike.

I had to go over all of this when I was trying to make a dance ... um, character. One idea is to have a single gauntlet as a weapon (reskin a club or other bludgeoning weapon, or put metal knobs and reskin a mace, or whatever is appropriate) and use it to make weapon attacks with mastery. Have the other hand free to make unarmed strikes.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Out of curiosity, are you planning on using the gauntlets as weapons or using them for mastery on unarmed strikes? Because there is a logic for the strict demarcation between the melee attacks with weapons v. unarmed strikes in the 5e24 rules. Having gauntlets as weapons is trivial (it's just reskinning), but allowing mastery for unarmed strikes is ... different?

I know you've looked at this, but the rules for grappling/shoving in 5e24 require an unarmed strike ("a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you."). 5e24 (unfortunately, IMO) uses a lot more of the keyword system, and a lot of different abilities, feats, and what not are keyed off the language of "Unarmed Strike."

This ends up causes synergies in some areas- Way of the Elements monks get extended grappling range, because they have extended range to unarmed strikes, and grapples are part of unarmed strikes. Crusher works with unarmed strikes, since the language applies to an attack that deals bludgeoning damage (unless you're a monk dealing force damage). But other things are not allowed to work with an unarmed strike- you cannot use true strike (requires a weapon) or weapon masteries (requires a weapon) with an unarmed strike.

I had to go over all of this when I was trying to make a dance ... um, character. One idea is to have a single gauntlet as a weapon (reskin a club or other bludgeoning weapon, or put metal knobs and reskin a mace, or whatever is appropriate) and use it to make weapon attacks with mastery. Have the other hand free to make unarmed strikes.

This would be a better approach, although you wouldn’t be able to use the fighting style with that weapon.

What @Neurotic you're trying to do is give your monk access to weapon masteries without using weapons and trying to get the higher unarmed damage bonus that comes with fighting style.

In the end, a monk can get a D8 damage with a staff and still use ki and extra attacks. And if they multi class as a fighter, they can use weapon masteries.

I’m trying to figure out if it’s any worse or more powerful to have gauntlets that are considered a monk’s weapon.

Unarmed attacks also include head butts and kicks.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

What @Neurotic you're trying to do is give your monk access to weapon masteries without using weapons and trying to get the higher unarmed damage bonus that comes with fighting style.

I think he's a fighter- that's the issue. If he was a monk, this would be a different conversation.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

I think he's a fighter- that's the issue. If he was a monk, this would be a different conversation.

He has ki:0 listed on his sheet which tells me he will be multi classing

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

He has ki:0 listed on his sheet which tells me he will be multi classing

I just looked again, and I think he is still editing? @Neurotic

He has Fighter equipment and proficiencies and skills, but d8 hit dice, but also both tavern brawler and tough for origin feats (and so on)? I think he is in-between concepts.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

@TaranTheWanderer

Hey- while I'm thinking about weapon masteries and weapons, I have two questions. First, I want to apologize for going full shillelagh, but it was calling out to me for my concept. As in, "l'm gonna medieval on anyone who seeks to poison and destroy nature! And you will know my name is vengeance when you feel the splinters in your as... posterior."

That said, two issues:

1. It brings up the (sigh) topple mastery. That means every single hit forces a con save from the target (DC 13). These types of things tend to slow PbP- how do you want to handle it? Any thing specific?

2. Shillelagh triggers on a bonus action and lasts a minute.* No, I'm not going to be cantrip spamming every minute because that would look stupid, and we all know that goth elves must look cool. On the other hand, I assume I'd keep the can o' whoop-posterior active when we are in danger (no concentration). Can I assume that if we are in a situation where I have some forewarning of combat, shillelagh is active, and if not, it isn't and I have to use bonus on the first round to activate it? Or do you prefer that I always activate it on the first round of combat? Or something else?

Not trying to get anything by- the reason I am asking is that I am hoping that I have the chance to use hunter's mark on the first round every now and then- and I'm always going to want shillelagh for my combat weapon. Yep, it's a bonus action issue.

Either way is cool. LMK.


*It gives me a magic stick. Um ... yeah, there isn't a good way to write that. Anyway, it doesn't trigger on an attack, it just affects my staff. .... DANG IT!

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

@TaranTheWanderer

Hey- while I'm thinking about weapon masteries and weapons, I have two questions. First, I want to apologize for going full shillelagh, but it was calling out to me for my concept. As in, "l'm gonna medieval on anyone who seeks to poison and destroy nature! And you will know my name is vengeance when you feel the splinters in your as... posterior."

That said, two issues:

1. It brings up the (sigh) topple mastery. That means every single hit forces a con save from the target (DC 13). These types of things tend to slow PbP- how do you want to handle it? Any thing specific?

After your first attack to topple, roll your second attack with advantage and damage.

When I post, if they fail the save, I will take the best roll and the enemy will take the damage
If they make the save, I will take the FIRST roll listed in the advantage. So, it the first roll is high enough, it may hit anyways and, if it's low, it'll miss.

I'll assume you aren't editing the rolls to always put the highest roll first.

It's a little more work on your end, kind of.

If I feel it's going to be confusing(like, you go first and then every other player needs to know if they should roll advantage), I'll just make a quick post with the result of the check

2. Shillelagh triggers on a bonus action and lasts a minute.* No, I'm not going to be cantrip spamming every minute because that would look stupid, and we all know that goth elves must look cool. On the other hand, I assume I'd keep the can o' whoop-posterior active when we are in danger (no concentration). Can I assume that if we are in a situation where I have some forewarning of combat, shillelagh is active, and if not, it isn't and I have to use bonus on the first round to activate it? Or do you prefer that I always activate it on the first round of combat? Or something else?

It's only a problem if you're trying to be stealthy. In which case, you need to mention you're casting it. Otherwise, unless you get ambushed in a scenario where you wouldn't typically have it up, I'll just assume you're reapplying frequently.

Not trying to get anything by- the reason I am asking is that I am hoping that I have the chance to use hunter's mark on the first round every now and then- and I'm always going to want shillelagh for my combat weapon. Yep, it's a bonus action issue.

Either way is cool. LMK.


*It gives me a magic stick. Um ... yeah, there isn't a good way to write that. Anyway, it doesn't trigger on an attack, it just affects my staff. .... DANG IT!

Goth elf always keeps applying the love to their staff so they can be ready to bang the enemy.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

So, I will get a post up soon. I've been distracted with Fitz's game...and cleaning all my camping crap. And it's 35 degrees Celsius and I made the conscious choice not to have A/C in my house and I am regretting it...but the heat is affecting my productivity.