D&D 5E Reworking Spell Lists (Reducing "Sameyness")

[TwoSix]

I do not care for that one, BTW.

When a Cleric got some sort of mind control, it seemed to evoke a sense of divine authority. Command, Calm Emotions, Enthrall, Hold Person.

Charm Person, Suggestion, Hypnotic whatevers, have always been arcane, especially Enchantment/Charm and Illusions specialist things.

The wizard can't keep all of their previous capabilities in this exercise, point blank. They simply cover too much ground. They don't have to lose charm/mind-affecting, but they have to lose something major to keep the 3 spell lists in rough equivalence.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Animate Dead (Cleric/Wizard) (C,W)
Yikes! Should Cleric be able to make/control and turn undead? Or should Wizard get it? I have always been a fan of the evil priest with hordes of undead and it wouldn't make sense for them to be able to control them if they couldn't make them...

Classic Evil Necromancer and EHP stuff. But, the EHP can always Command Undead, instead of creating them.

Bestow Curse (Cleric/Druid*) (B,C,W)
A tough one. Given the hexy/witchy nature Druid is moving, I think Druid might be a better fit, but it is open.

Don't move the Druid too witchy, we already have the Warlock on the arcane side.

Might, be good to have the Arcane type Bestow Curses, and the Divine types Remove them.
(Though the classic EHP should surely Bestow Curses.)

Create Food and Water (Cleric/Druid*) (C,P)
For me this is simple, but I know TwoSix was originally thinking Druid.

Biblical, yeah.

Enemies Abound (Wizard/Cleric*) (B,S,War,W)
Since this is person-affecting, I think that is why TwoSix went to Cleric, but I think the madness-affecting style of Wizard would be a better fit.

And it started life as a wizard Illusion spell.

Feign Death (Cleric/Druid) (B,C,D,W)
Who KNOWS!? All big 3 get this spell.

It works as both a naturalistic spell (plenty of animals do that sort of thing), and a parlor trick, so, yeah. Toss up.

Hunger of Hadar (Druid*/Cleric*) (War)
While I was thinking Druid, and TwoSix Cleric, I think after moving Arms of Hadar to Wizard, I am sure this will likely follow.

Hadar is an arcane GOO-associated Star, yes.

Life Transference (Cleric/Druid*) (C,W)
While Cleric and Wizard (and I was thinking Cleric at first), giving the necro nature I am actually leaning towards Druid now as a way Druids can heal.

Druids should certainly heal.
Goodberry and Healing Spirit make a lot of sense for that.

This one could go either way.

Slow (Wizard/Cleric*) (S,W)
Since this is a physically-affecting spell, I think that was why TwoSix went with Cleric (sort of like another Hold Person). Still, since it applies to any creature, I like it for Wizard but I could go either way.

Longtime Wizard spell.

Hold connotes divine authority, Slow not so much.

Summon Lesser Demons (Wizard/Cleric*) (War,W)
Given the extraplanar nature, I was going Wizard, but with the Cleric/Warlock idea I think TwoSix decided Cleric fits better for that reason.

This is one of those things where you just might want to put different spins on it and go with both. Or, Arcanists can summon demons, Divine can banish them - that'd work.

Spirit Gaurdians

I like the idea of Druids (Primal, ties into the tribal/shamanic vibe) getting more spirit-oriented spells, like this one, and Healing Spirit.

Tongues (Cleric/Wizard) (B,C,S,War,W)
Given that Comprehend Languages went to the Wizard for the investigation/research aspect, I like Tongues for the social-support aspect.

It's Ok for the wizard to have the magical-cryptography-like Comprehend Languages, and the Cleric the biblical Tongues.

Vampiric Touch (Wizard/Druid*) (War,W)
I could see this going either way, so I would defer to Druid for the necro aspect if others agree.

Vampires and life-draining are un-natural, it's a signature Necromancer spell. I'd say wizard.[/SPOILER][/QUOTE]

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

My take on the 3rd level oprhans:

Animate death: I think cleric is a good fit. Necromancers are the only wizard
who really care about it and they get it in their class bundle.

Bestow Curse: I think I prefer cleric to have the ''reversable'' spells, so if
they have Remove Curse, I'd like to give them Bestow.

Create food and water: Jesus magic = Cleric

Feign Death: Parlor trick = Wizard

Hunger of Hadar: Astrology = Wizard

Life transference: Control on the cycle of life = druid

Slow: tradition = wizard

Summon Lesser Demon: hell stuff = cleric

Thunder step: if we give Misty Step to Wizard, I think Thunderstep could go to druids.

Tongues: biblical stuff = cleric

Vampiric Touch: Giving yourself undead stuff doest feel cleric or druid, so I'd go
with Wizard.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The wizard can't keep all of their previous capabilities in this exercise, point blank. They simply cover too much ground. They don't have to lose charm/mind-affecting, but they have to lose something major to keep the 3 spell lists in rough equivalence.

While the Cleric/Druid and Wizard have very similar spell progressions, they have very different contributions to make to the party. The Cleric & Druid are heavily support-oriented, so their spell resources are used differently, while the Wizard is more of a primary problem-solver with his magic, which tends to be more spotlight-grabbing.

Also consider that the Wizard might still end up with a bigger list, but the Cleric/Druid prep from their whole list as a matter of course, not just the sub-set of it they've learned so far.

...hmm... finally, consider taking away from the wizard by re-instating opposition schools in the sub-classes. There's no generalist mage, so that'd serve the purpose, and further differentiate Traditions, as well.

 

[Tony Vargas]

As previously mentioned:

Spirit Guardians

I like the general idea of Spirit = Primal.

Daylight

In light of giving them Light, I think this one could go to the Divine side of the house.

1. Counterspell
2. Dispel Magic

Divine should definitely be able to Dispel Magic.
While Counterspell fits the knowledge-oriented Arcanist well.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Is 'rough equivalence' really a road leading away from 'sameyness,' though?

And, while the Cleric/Druid and Wizard have very similar spell progressions, they have very different contributions to make to the party. The Cleric & Druid are heavily support-oriented, so their spell resources are used differently, while the Wizard is more of a primary problem-solver with his magic, which tends to be more spotlight-grabbing.

Oh, also consider that the Wizard might still end up with a bigger list, but the Cleric/Druid prep from their whole list as a matter of course, not just the sub-set of it they've learned so far.

...hmm... finally, consider taking away from the wizard by re-instating opposition schools in the sub-classes. There's no generalist mage, so that'd serve the purpose, and further differentiate Traditions, as well.

I also think that I prefer each class to have its own feel, even if some of them ends up with a little more spells in the end rather forcing far fetched spell into a Sphere just to balance the numbers.

I also think that my idea to have ''specialist wizard'' be able to scribe spells from scrolls from their school no matter the Sphere would be the way to go.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Divine should definitely be able to Dispel Magic.
While Counterspell fits the knowledge-oriented Arcanist well.

This. Having them both in the same Sphere is redundant in thematic and effect.

 

[TwoSix]

I also think that I prefer each class to have its own feel, even if some of them ends up with a little more spells in the end rather forcing far fetched spell into a Sphere just to balance the numbers.

I also think that my idea to have ''specialist wizard'' be able to scribe spells from scrolls from their school no matter the Sphere would be the way to go.

At the risk of a massive derail....what if it was wizards that didn't have a spell list? What if they could learn any spell that belonged to their school and a few other schools, regardless of spell list? They would have flavor closer to a 3.5 archivist, a scholarly hunter of lore?

Then the arcane spell list wouldn't be for wizards, it could be for sorcerers or bards or warlocks, or whatever fits best as a primary arcane caster?

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

At the risk of a massive derail....what if it was wizards that didn't have a spell list? What if they could learn any spell that belonged to their school and a few other schools, regardless of spell list? They would have flavor closer to a 3.5 archivist, a scholarly hunter of lore?

Then the arcane spell list wouldn't be for wizards, it could be for sorcerers or bards or warlocks, or whatever fits best as a primary arcane caster?

I think that that would be spectacular and I would be all in for it! I think its a genius idea.

But I like ''out-there'' design. Some traditionalist would probably hate it.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Cool. Tell me about the druid material in the 3e Complete Primal book.

Keep reading the thread, smart guy.