Rogue powers, sneak attack and weapon selection

[hong]

does it really need to be though? my set of rogues (I have two in my game) don't seem to have that much of a problem with flanking and only usually when a monster has backed off into the corner or is in formation.

Well, the claim was made that sneak attack being more limited than in 3E was okay because you could do it more often. I'm just wondering whether that second bit actually holds.

4th edition gives us nifty sliding/pulling/pushing powers to put the enemy where you want it leading to potentially more flanking and more horrible rogue stabbage.

This is true. Another one: since full attacks don't exist anymore, it's no longer suboptimal to move to the other side of an enemy and sneak attack from there.

 

[OakwoodDM]

From what I recall reading way back a couple of months or so ago, the key thing is that Rogues are apparently going to get powers that give them combat advantage, so they won't have to work so hard to get the chance to Sneak Attack.

 

[hong]

Although... now I REALLY want to implement something like the Iron Heroes rule that you can provide flanking for yourself. This is so that rogue duelists can still do the stabbity when fighting alone.

 

[Nikodemus]

Well, the claim was made that sneak attack being more limited than in 3E was okay because you could do it more often. I'm just wondering whether that second bit actually holds.

Think of the percentage of monsters immune to sneak attack in 3.x (oozes, undead, constructs, etc.). I Don't think it is that much easier to gain combat advantage, but, in practice, the rogue will be able to sneak attack his opponents FAR more often in 4th ed,

 

[ThirdWizard]

Okay, dominated, prone and dazed look new compared to 3E. Still not sure that it's really that much easier to gain CA in 4E, though.

From the Sneak Attack! article:

Crimson Edge
...
Hit: 2W + Dexterity modifier damage, and the target takes ongoing damage equal to 5 + your Strength modifier and grants combat advantage to you (save ends both).

So it looks like certain rogue abilities will grant combat advantage. I could also see Warlord abilities that grant combat advantage to an ally or something similar being in the game.

 

[hong]

Think of the percentage of monsters immune to sneak attack in 3.x (oozes, undead, constructs, etc.). I Don't think it is that much easier to gain combat advantage, but, in practice, the rogue will be able to sneak attack his opponents FAR more often in 4th ed,

That is another issue entirely.

 

[Nikodemus]

That is another issue entirely.

Not really. Thalin's original claim was "But the rogue gets more chances to use sneak-attack now. Virtually no-one is immune to sneak-attacks, and it can be used whenever he has combat advantage. LOTS more uses, fewer weapons to use. Not a bad trade-off."

The reason sneak attack is better in 4th ed is the lack of blanket immunities; that was the assertion that started this discussion.

 

[hong]

Not really. Thalin's original claim was "But the rogue gets more chances to use sneak-attack now. Virtually no-one is immune to sneak-attacks, and it can be used whenever he has combat advantage. LOTS more uses, fewer weapons to use. Not a bad trade-off."

The reason sneak attack is better in 4th ed is the lack of blanket immunities; that was the assertion that started this discussion.

Yes. Virtually noone is immune to sneak attacks AND it can be used whenever he has combat advantage.

Because even if noone is immune to sneak attacks, if combat advantage were as situational as in 3E, I wouldn't think that was very good.

 

[ShockMeSane]

Okay, dominated, prone and dazed look new compared to 3E. Still not sure that it's really that much easier to gain CA in 4E, though.

I'm not sure how much easier it will be to gain CA in 4e over 3.x, but I am sure that you will be able to take advantage of sneak attack more often. Undead and Constructs no longer being immune to it alone will see to that. Still, all the shifting powers making getting into a flanking position inherently a bit easier in 4e, as even the 5% failure chance on Tumble made it a more dangerous option. I have a feeling that the level 2 utility power that grants a 15' shift is going to see a lot of use from our rogue friends.

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

I played the first encounter of KotS last night as the rogue. I think every attack for four rounds was a SA. Won't always be possible of course but I think a rogue who isn't afraid of OA's and uses the advantage of a marking fighter/paladin will have plenty of options to get their stabbity on.