Rogue powers, sneak attack and weapon selection

[Cadfan]

Re: Sneak attacking with a sap.

You don't need to be able to do this.

In the thread for people who viewed the PHB, someone mentions reading a high level (I believe it was level 15) rogue power where the rogue jumps onto the back of a target, and garrotes it over the course of several rounds.

Does the fact that the rogue can't sneak attack with a garrote make this less cool? Of course not.

The in-game thing that sneak attack describes in 3e was attacking someone with anatomical precision while they're at a disadvantage. Hence, you could do it with any weapon, but only against enemies that had anatomies. It was basically the only way to beat up a disadvantaged foe, so it had to be pretty versatile. So you could do it with any weapon you wanted, and it covered a lot of situations.

4e is different, thanks to the powers system. The game now has the potential for many different ways you can beat up a disadvantaged foe. I'll bet an internet cookie that powers exist which widen the "beat up a disadvantaged foe" niche, and add specific types and methods for beating up disadvantaged foes. I bet there are powers that let you beat up bloodied foes more effectively, powers that let you do particularly mean things to enemies which grant you combat advantage, and powers that let you do unusual attacks with unusual weapons.

If there's no "knock him in the head with a sap" power in the PHB, I predict that there will be eventually.

 

[LEHaskell]

I played the first encounter of KotS last night as the rogue. I think every attack for four rounds was a SA. Won't always be possible of course but I think a rogue who isn't afraid of OA's and uses the advantage of a marking fighter/paladin will have plenty of options to get their stabbity on.

Emphasis mine. I think this is key. The KotS pre-gen rogue has the best AC in the party when he's provoking OA's . I think the new paradigm for rogues will be to provoke OA's to get in an attack rather than stand by with lower AC and take regular attacks.

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

Emphasis mine. I think this is key. The KotS pre-gen rogue has the best AC in the party when he's provoking OA's . I think the new paradigm for rogues will be to provoke OA's to get in an attack rather than stand by with lower AC and take regular attacks.

Yes, the synergy between the rogue intentionally provoking OA's and the Marks from the Paladin and the Fighter make it a choice of trading a potential hit for two "extra" damage sources (Mark attack and the extra 2d8 for SA). Add in the fact he's got an encounter power to negate the first OA that hits...

 

[gribble]

So, like in 99% of D&D fights?

Well, that depends on the nature of your game, doesn't it? In an urban city-based campaign there are a lot of times that you won't want to be pulling out a sword and stabbing people.

The concept I had in mind, even when fighting things like evil humanoids, wouldn't necessarily be stabbing them with a sword... think kind of like a bareknucle brawler/bouncer type of guy.

 

[gribble]

Re: Sneak attacking with a sap.

You don't need to be able to do this.

...

If there's no "knock him in the head with a sap" power in the PHB, I predict that there will be eventually.

Sure, I can see the argument that it isn't strictly necessary[\i] to sneak attack in 4e, and that there will possibly (probably?) be powers that aren't keyed to the "holy trinity" of light blade, sling & crossbow. But it sure isn't much fun that your main basic ability, not to mention the majority of your powers, aren't usable if you choose unarmed/sap/club/shortbow - even garotte - as your main weapon.

 

[gribble]

I hope you're right, but after looking through the blogs agina, the only mention I found in a staff blog was this one by Scott Rouse (which which also mentions the issue of having powers to use with other weapons)

Unfortunate. I got my hopes up for a bit there. While having to spend (waste?) a feat on making the concept work wouldn't be ideal, it would have been an acceptable compromise...

 

[WalterKovacs]

The game, as they stated, is inherently exception based in the rules.

This means, that a sap, for example, could have in it's weapon description that it counts as a light blade for the purposes of rogue powers. Similarly a garote wire, and other types of weapons that are not in the 'core 3' but are associated with sneak attacking, could have similar entries.

Martial characters have weapons instead of implements. The types of weapons that each one uses is likely going to, until the martial splat book comes out with more options, be iconic. Ranger is about two weapon fighting and bows. Rogues use light blades and crossbows [concealability playing a factor, in addition to the ability to get up close, etc]. Fighters will likely be associated with the bigger weapons.

 

[gribble]

The game, as they stated, is inherently exception based in the rules.

This means, that a sap, for example, could have in it's weapon description that it counts as a light blade for the purposes of rogue powers.

I would be quite happy with this solution, if it proves to be true.

 

[Keenath]

THAADVANCENKS.

Actually, you'd want "ADTHANKSVANCE". "Thanks" in "Advance".

 

[Cadfan]

Sure, I can see the argument that it isn't strictly necessary[\i] to sneak attack in 4e, and that there will possibly (probably?) be powers that aren't keyed to the "holy trinity" of light blade, sling & crossbow. But it sure isn't much fun that your main basic ability, not to mention the majority of your powers, aren't usable if you choose unarmed/sap/club/shortbow - even garotte - as your main weapon.

I'd respond that a sap shouldn't work with the majority of your rogue powers. And a garrote especialy shouldn't. A sap should work for whacking someone on the back of the head. A garrote should work for strangling someone from behind. And if you're looking for unarmed attacks of deadly precision against vital points, you might want to wait for the inevitable Ninja class.