D&D 5E Should the next edition of D&D promote more equality?

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MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
I think the main argument for males being stronger than females is "all things being equal (genetics, nutrition and level and kind of training) males are stronger/Taller/bigger than females just by the mere fact they run on testosterone" Which however has no place on a system such as D&D, were PC's are on average better-than-averege and not common folk and the system is so abstract on that regard the difference becomes too fidly to be worthy, (really Str 20 halfling barbarians lifting a mountain by mundane means brakes my suspension of disbeleif much more than such).

And beyond that appereance and gender have so far being only flavor of the character, and IMO gender and ethnicity should remain on that realm -flavor- If you want to make a female PC that goes toe to toe with Connan and even better trash the floor with him, you should be free to do so, if you want a ""realistic female PC"" (understood as 'weaker than men') just don't put every single bonus you can put your hands on into Strenght and you are free to go, we don't need nor should have such modifiers, this kind of argument belong in the personal level (If anybody needs to really imposse his/her views on the other people on the table, or worse at other tables, there are worse issues at hand than a fiddly +1 on STR or a gender cap on it, note I cannot stress it hard enough I don't advocate for that kind of things*)

On the art side, I really really wish this new edition has more sensible depictions of female warriors, one chainmail bikini or one belly button showing from time to time could be passable if it is in the right context, but not on the cover and certainly not at the expense of sexualizing every single depiction of a female in armor. (this also applies to women without armor, no cheesecake for cheesecake sake please). I really wish for the art and writing on the new edition to abstain as much as possible from oversexed depictions and from touching sexuality at all, we want this game to be kid friendly, to be played by children, adult themes belong somewhere else, D&D should be a game parents can play with their children without fear of having to answer difficult questions they aren't preppared to discuss with their kids yet. Oversexed depictions belong into campaign settings and niche products aimed at a mature audience (and third party most likely), sexuality and stuff can easily be added back by tables that want it (and which memebers are old enough to vote and buy beer), but cannot be removed by parents who would rather not give to their kids than go the extra mile to make it appropriate for them.

I'm less concerned with the ethnic diversity angle, however this may come from the fact I was born and raised in a country were people is so diverse we might as well be homogeneous in practice, we don't really tend to think of people on "racial" grounds, so really not having "a latino role model to identify with in this game of pretend elves" isn't a major concern, as say "this book is written on a mainstream language I was forced to learn at the expense of my mother tongue in order to get any education at all or worse in a foreign language I'm barely capable of understand because public education just sucks so hard". I'm not saying my country is free from discrimination, actually the opossite but it is mostly focussed on other socioeconomic fronts, place of origin, wealth level, education level, discapacities or not, age, social class, gender all of that plays a heavier role into it.

*Yes even when one rpg I'm writing seems to go against this opinion. But it is more on the simulation side than typical D&D and it tries to depict common joes or even lower than average people against overwhelming odds. On that game heritage and gender do play a part on the way the character grows (though not at all on abilty scores per se, those are unaffected), with males needing 1 less instance of exp to improve strength and strength related skills and being able to choose to be one size bigger than average, while females need 1 less instance of xp to improve Fitness (Constitution) and fitness related abilities, being able to choose to be one size smaller than average and having their body hit points doubled, but those are pretty minor differences, at certain point it makes no difference if you need 9,999 or 10,000 exp to have a chance to improve your str.(in other words that +1 only means you hit the cap slighty faster) And having a bigger size does bring a few extra hit points and the chance to wield bigger weapons (which are more expensive), but a bigger character needs bigger armor (which is more expensive) and has a worse time hiding, jumping or that kind of things (compounded because bigger armor is also heavier), and finally +1 pales in comparison to the +8 one can get from having the right heritage or the +3 that comes from the right affinities, or the +20 straight to strength one can get just from being lucky and be that 0.001% who has the super strength boon. Gender would be otherwise purely superficial, but with the myriad of gender changing effects that ended up happening in the system, it had to mean something mechanically or that stuff would become pure fluff, reducing fairness overall. Oh and the heritage isn't related at all at to any modern ethnicity instead it is related to the chance you'll be stronger, faster, healtier, more apt to channel magics or to suddenly sprout wings and become an incorporeal-eternal being. In other words here humans are hybrids of a myriad of true subespecies with deep differences that go beyond skin, eye and hair color -such ethnic differences are pretty recent and superficial on the biologic side and have a heavy cultural bagagge-.
 

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TanithT

First Post
There is also the broader question of whether illustrations that sexualise women is therefore sexist. As a general proposition, I don't know that is true. But I think there is something sexist, and potentially demeaning, in the more narrow idea conveyed by the cover of the DMG 2 - namely that, even in fantasy adventuring contexts, it is women's sexuality and sexiness that is their most salient characteristic. Two people might have different views about the morals and politics of lingerie catalogues, or of pornography, yet still agree that there is something weird about so much D&D art being so obviously obsessed by women's sexuality, when that sexuality plays so little role in the game as presented in the rulebooks and most adventures.

Excellent summary. It's not that nudity and sexualized depictions are 'immoral' for consenting adults to view. It's that making sexualized depictions the default in RPG art is *weird*, out of place, misleading, and it sends a message about how women should be perceived and treated. Eg, they're always supposed to be the eye candy sex objects, not the players or the heroes. Even in situations where it is unrealistic or stupid or outright suicidal for them to be dressing and posing to emphasize their sexual characteristics.


The dominant line of reasoning that I'm seeing is that gratuitously sexualised art wrongs or demeans women because of the conception of women that it commuinicates. That is a perfectly tenable form of deontological argument.

Well, it sure makes them look stupid. Whether that's 'immoral' or not is less relevant than doing some hard thinking about whether this is the message you really want hardcoded into your game.
 

NewJeffCT

First Post
in regards to the chainmail bikini - I think if you're playing a lightly armored barbarian woman, then a chainmail or leather bikini is acceptable, just like the bare-chested Conan like figure of a man is the norm for a male barbarian. However, if you're playing a female fighter or paladin, then I think they should be depicted in realistic armor - nor all that different than male armor.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Here's my last bit on gender-based Str mods:

Given that PC races in D&D may vary by hundreds of pounds of body mass from humans and only be +-2 Str from the human norm, then any gender-based Str mod of statistical significance to the game makes zero sense.

Put differently, if a muscle and bone mass difference of as much as 3x the body mass of an adult male is only worth +2 to Str across species, a difference within a species of 100lbs or less is not worth calculating.
 

Nellisir

Hero
... I'd probably express this as a +3 bonus for men to a strength roll.
...For simplicity and fairness I'd say female humans get 3 bonus points to allocate as their player pleases among dex, cha, and con.
...And as I said previously, I'd state right in the core that a player can use the male mods if what he wants is a strong female PC.

This...really doesn't make much sense to me. It's basically this: Human, +3 to Str OR +3 divided between Dex, Cha, and Con at player's choice.

It's like the worst of all worlds. Broken stat bonuses that provide the illusion of catering to gender bias (women can be sneaky, agile, and charming, or strong, but not both, and men are just grunts...but not high Con grunts, those are women...), but don't actually mean anything (since women can take "male" stats; maybe men can take "female" stats, but that's not stated), so you've got a weird sort of lip service to gender differentiation without any meaningful substance.
 

Hussar

Legend
/edit whoops, misread.

But, honestly, I think DannyA has the right of it. If deviating by a hundred pounds either way (or more) results in a 2 point shift, then there's no way that male and female humans need different mods.

Now, if you look at something like this:

wallpaper_DMG2_3_1280.jpg


we've still got a pretty sexy Tiefling, but, at least she's not really eye candy. The pose makes a big difference.
 
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pemerton

Legend
Excellent summary.
Thanks.

Well, it sure makes them look stupid. Whether that's 'immoral' or not is less relevant than doing some hard thinking about whether this is the message you really want hardcoded into your game.
The way I read this thread (and others like it) is that some people are running moral/political arguments, some are running market/commercial arguments, and some are running both. And I think both sorts of arguments are reasonable, and tend (in this context) to be complementary: eg how is it good for sales if a lot of potential customers think your gender politics are backwards?
 

TanithT

First Post
The way I read this thread (and others like it) is that some people are running moral/political arguments, some are running market/commercial arguments, and some are running both. And I think both sorts of arguments are reasonable, and tend (in this context) to be complementary: eg how is it good for sales if a lot of potential customers think your gender politics are backwards?

My argument is mostly that I am sick and tired of my entire (publicly presented) gender being portrayed and treated as stupid, as purely ornamental but totally ineffective eye candy. I am sick and tired of getting the message with every RPG book I pick up that this material is mainly intended for the enjoyment of heterosexual males, at the expense of portraying women as stupid, petty and vain, eg, prioritizing looking hot over dressing appropriately for the job they're supposed to be doing. I am sick and tired of being treated like a second class citizen at the gaming table when the attitude about women being the visual objects of the game rather than normal fellow players spills over to real life.

I don't see it having anything to do with morality. Porn is good, porn is fine, porn is a completely different issue from inappropriately sexualizing women in situations where it is suicidally stupid for them to be sexualized. That's an insult to everyone's intelligence. Seriously, that chainmail bikini is going to protect anyone from Orc arrows, how? That is *stupid*, and the stupid is what needs to stop. Not the sex, just the stupid.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
But, honestly, I think DannyA has the right of it. If deviating by a hundred pounds either way (or more) results in a 2 point shift, then there's no way that male and female humans need different mods.

Eh, your halflings example provided the key* to open the door to that analysis. Credit where credit is due.













* or, more likely, picked the lock.
 

steenan

Adventurer
My argument is mostly that I am sick and tired of my entire (publicly presented) gender being portrayed and treated as stupid, as purely ornamental but totally ineffective eye candy. I am sick and tired of getting the message with every RPG book I pick up that this material is mainly intended for the enjoyment of heterosexual males, at the expense of portraying women as stupid, petty and vain, eg, prioritizing looking hot over dressing appropriately for the job they're supposed to be doing. I am sick and tired of being treated like a second class citizen at the gaming table when the attitude about women being the visual objects of the game rather than normal fellow players spills over to real life.

I don't see it having anything to do with morality. Porn is good, porn is fine, porn is a completely different issue from inappropriately sexualizing women in situations where it is suicidally stupid for them to be sexualized. That's an insult to everyone's intelligence. Seriously, that chainmail bikini is going to protect anyone from Orc arrows, how? That is *stupid*, and the stupid is what needs to stop. Not the sex, just the stupid.

I mostly agree. I don't see a problem with sexual themes in RPGs (including art), I just want them to be kept where appropriate.

So, give me pictures of characters in armor, in normal clothing, and maybe sometimes in nude ("adventurers bathe sometimes, you know?").
But no "chainmal bikinis", bare bellies and erotic poses in combat scenes or other forms of absurd sexualization.
 

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