D&D 5E Should the next edition of D&D promote more equality?

[Sonny]

I forget which Paizoan was talking about it, but they've gotten multiple pieces of contracted art where nipples are poking through leather armor. Which is absurd on so many levels.

I would say that's unbelievable, but considering the attitudes I've personally encountered in the video game industry, it's sadly not surprising.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Are they sure it wasn't riveted armor under leather clothing?

I haven't sold any art at a pro level for quite some time, but that strikes me as juvenile and unprofessional.

 

[Dausuul]

Are they sure it wasn't riveted armor under leather clothing?

I haven't sold any art at a pro level for quite some time, but that strikes me as juvenile and unprofessional.

Well, there was that picture of Morgan Ironwolf in the old red box, she of the chainmail-piercing nipples. That was a long time ago, though.

(Ironically, it was in other respects a better picture than much of what we get today. The armor covered the vital spots with no sexy little cut-outs or cleavage displays, and her pose was combat-ready, not seductive. If you added a little texture to show that she was wearing leggings rather than bare thighs, and added a couple strategic dabs of white-out to her chest, it'd be a great internal illo for a modern D&D book.)

 

[El Mahdi]

The opinions of prudes, IMO, should be ignored when judging art.

This is irrelevant to the discussion.

I agree. It's also offensive and inappropriate; just as bad as calling someone a perv for liking the opposite. I also believe the mods warned against things such as this from the beginning of the thread...

 

[Gorgoroth]

By placing certain viewpoints as "out of bounds", you are most certainly asserting your own as being superior.

Art has often been at odds with social norms, and is often offensive. If you do not agree, I invite you to visit more galleries and art fairs. It's nice, having an open mind. "To each their own" seems to be a dirty phrase around here.

You do not get to tell me that my opinions are out of line, THAT is offensive to me. But I wouldn't try and censor you. Because I'm an adult. I don't need your approval, I'm confident enough in my own worldview, living in one of the most liberal cities in the world, that art wants to be free. The more people try to put limits on what art (or ideas) are deemed acceptable, the more they will find themselves vexed that others do not agree with them.

Limits on acceptable language are arbitrary and silly, I said nothing that would be considered offensive to someone living in this modern era, it actually surprises me that what I wrote is even controversial. At all. Maybe it's because I hang out in more liberal circles, with lots of artist friends.

 

[Morrus]

You do not get to tell me that my opinions are out of line, THAT is offensive to me.

You're free to say what you like, but others aren't free to say what they think of it? You alone get to forbid people from saying things?

 

[Dausuul]

By placing certain viewpoints as "out of bounds", you are most certainly asserting your own as being superior.

I surely am, just as you are. Any time you argue for one viewpoint and against another, you're asserting that the first viewpoint is superior.

But I wouldn't try and censor you.

Do you work for the government? Do you have people with guns and arrest warrants ready to back up your decisions? If not, then you can't censor me, any more than I can censor you. Censorship isn't under discussion, or it wasn't until you came along.

Freedom of speech does not mean nobody can criticize what you say. On the contrary, it means everybody can criticize what you say. Even if you put what you say into a frame and call it *drumroll, hymns of praise* ART. Deal with it.

 

[delericho]

Surely this doesn't require an extra step in most cases. You get the concept sketch. You say, "Okay, we can work with this, but I'd like the fighter to be more in the foreground here, make the water knee-deep instead of ankle-deep, and the black dragon needs to conform to our established appearance for black dragons--the horns are supposed to be curled like a ram's, not sweep backwards." How much work is it to add "Oh, and put some clothes on the wizard" to that list of adjustments? I can't believe you'd need new concept art for each individual change, and it can't be that unusual for the art director to want changes.

Sure, it works on a single picture. But on average it will require more effort to meet three constraints than two - there will be more images that just need rejected out of hand, there will be cases where the clothing issue gets forgotten and needs fixed later, and so forth.

Look, I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be done. In my first post, waaaaay up-thread, I said that they should indeed make these changes. I'm just noting that the cost of doing so is non-zero.

 

[delericho]

Art has often been at odds with social norms, and is often offensive.

Yes, but the D&D books are not just art. They're commercial products designed to sell the maximum number of copies possible. Part of that is the artwork in the books, and if WotC find that the artwork to date costs them more customers than it gains, you can be sure they'll change.

You may well feel that that lessens the artistic integrity of the work. Fair enough. But WotC will take the view that artistic integrity is secondary to selling through print runs.

Limits on acceptable language are arbitrary and silly

Perhaps. But we live in a world of social conventions. I'm reasonably sure the list of topics you're happy to discuss with your mother is somewhat different from those you will discuss while amongst friends. If not, that would make you very unusual.

That said, and FWIW, I agree that you haven't said anything offensive.

 

[Gorgoroth]

You're free to say what you like, but others aren't free to say what they think of it? You alone get to forbid people from saying things?

Morrus, I completely agree with your point, which was actually my own viewpoint as well. When others say art should be censored because the PC police will come a-knockin', I take offense to that. Keep on rockin' in the free world!! Nobody's ideas are involate and unassailable. On a messageboard, however, mods can delete posts. I only wrote that I believe those that would censor others' art or opinions or whatever, to be unworthy of the same protections. We only deserve those rights we afford to others, that's what fairness / equality means.

People I guess took what I wrote to mean that I was saying they were prudes, actually I was being quite diplomatic. To say I dislike bullies would be an understatement. Art / literary censors are the epitome of bullies. We're all adults here, and can decide how to spend our money. If you find the art on a piece of work to be offensive, don't buy it. Same thing for me, if I find the PC language in a D&D book more offensive or patronizing than I am willing to stand, in exchange for the rules I get out of it, I'll simply get an SRD-ified version of it or make one myself, or just buy another product.

In this age of internet smut everywhere, kids would probably find most of the "nip" faut-pas mentioned on this board to be irrelevant, so yeah, I do think it's being taken drastically out of proportion here. Sexiness is not a crime, I don't believe women should have to cover up because of prudishness, we aren't living under taliban rule here in North America, so we shouldn't tippie toe around those who express such views, and trust me, in America, there are MANY who believe women should be covered up. Whereever I see prudishness, I see bigotry beneath it, and will speak up against it. Especially when judging art is concerned, the more credence you allow to those who would tell others what's acceptable or not, the more society devolves into an intolerant and conformist place, a place I don't want to live in. These ideas must be resisted, IMO.

It's amazing that a one-line sentence of mine, that we should ignore prudes' opinion of art, would generate such a tempest in a tea pot. I should show it to some artist friends of mine, they'll get a good laugh probably. People who would tell others that the human body is a shameful thing need to step back and look at what happens when societies start going down that road. All sorts of bad things happen, especially to women and minorities - that means you and me...lest I remind people here that D&D itself was often considered subversive by dim-witted cretins persecuting this hobby. Corrupting the minds of the youth used to be a capital offense, you know. Sacrilege and heresy still are, in certain parts of the world. That's not hyperbole, that's reality. People get killed for art and literature, even today.

My point is only that prudery is contrary to the essence of this hobby, it's counter-cultural. The idea that I should listen to people on this message board tell me what ideas are acceptable to express is ludicrous.