D&D 5E Should the next edition of D&D promote more equality?

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D&D is a game for which much of the audience wants an interesting and large set of tactical choices - that I'll grant. You can do that with fiddly bits (1e did it that way). But you can also do it with elegant game design.

Some would say that fiddly bits are elegant game design.

Yes, but it is a useful one - if it isn't on your top ten list, is it worth doing when a significant chunk of people will dislike the very concept, or even start attributing motives to you for having it?

This is certainly a credible point, but I'm not debating the ideology of the question of having a rule for sex-based limits on Strength (or for the ideology of game design). I wanted to speak specifically to the point that was made that having that penalty be akin to the racial penalty to Strength was "too much," as that implied that if that penalty was reduced then there was a point that it struck a level of simulation that was acceptable insofar as fidelity to reality went.

Also, prioritizing is a Good Thing when building just about anything. If this isn't in your Top Ten, would not your time and thought be better spent on your top ten?

In a game that has far more then ten things (and by "things" here we seem to be talking about rules) in it, such as D&D, I'd say not necessarily. Prioritizing is a good thing only so long as it doesn't cause you to ignore the things that aren't high priority (since they are still priorities, hence why they're on your list at all).
 

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That is not even close to an equivalent situation. I'm flabbergasted that you can't seem to understand that.

OK--I'm not flabbergasted at your inability to take my words at face value instead of imputing rather a lot about my intentions and broader beliefs that isn't actually indicated anywhere. It happens with touchy subjects.
 

In a game that has far more then ten things (and by "things" here we seem to be talking about rules) in it, such as D&D, I'd say not necessarily. Prioritizing is a good thing only so long as it doesn't cause you to ignore the things that aren't high priority (since they are still priorities, hence why they're on your list at all).

I mean we'd need a top-10 list of top-10 lists. Otherwise we'd have a game with
1 setting
1 race
1 class
1 god
1 town
1 monster
1 level
etc...

And if we go with a "top 10" of "top 10s" then we're looking at 100 things!
 

There's a persistent argument that because there are a large number of fantastic elements in the game world, rules that seek to enforce any real-world condition or situation that doesn't have broad applicability is somehow "missing the point." In other words, that because clearly fantastic elements have been introduced, any assumption that any aspect of the game world follows how we would expect things to function in the real world is faulty.

I put forth that this presumption is backward. It's more rational, to my mind, to presume that everything works the way it would in the real world unless the game specifically tells us otherwise.
And here I thought this thread was about what the game should tell us. :hmm:
 

I want to make it clear that the following is my playing devil's advocate, and is in no way representative of my personal opinions on the subject. I simply enjoy the debate.

Gotcha, will hold fire.

Just out of curiosity, how would this go for characters that have game-based reasons for "counterintuitive" things? Paizo's Seoni is a good example of a character that looks like a sex object (high Charisma, being a sorcerer) and doesn't wear armor (due to no proficiency with armor, and arcane spell failure chances).

Not that the male bard is a sex object, but he's also got high Charisma and wears little if any armor. I wouldn't be terribly confused if he looked like that too.

Actually, Seoni's outfit is a little ridiculous, since it's obviously displaying sex appeal. A short dress would have made more sense, but neither a short dress nor Seoni's outfit are designed to protect her from, well, anything. (She can use magic for that. I hope she learned Protection from the Elements!)

As I recall, First Edition's way of handling this wasn't to institute sex-based penalties, but rather sex-based caps on the maximum Strength score. If such a limit was set, would that fit with the level of granularity that the game depicts (if the limit was set high enough)?

For example, presuming we kept the usual range of ability scores, if there was a limit that said that men were capped at a Strength of 25, and women were capped at a Strength of 24, would that be a small enough differential that it would be a more appropriate representation?

I don't think it would. How do you get a Strength that high, without magic? And wouldn't magic break that limit anyway?
 
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Not that the male bard is a sex object, but he's also got high Charisma and wears little if any armor. I wouldn't be terribly confused if he looked like that too.

Do you mean Paizo's Iconic bard, Lem? There's something to be said for that, but as a class the bard can wear light armor, and has some degree of multiple attribute dependency (so they can't afford to focus solely on Charisma).

Actually, Seoni's outfit is a little ridiculous, since it's obviously displaying sex appeal. A short dress would have made more sense, but neither a short dress nor Seoni's outfit are designed to protect her from, well, anything. (She can use magic for that. I hope she learned Protection from the Elements!)

Her outfit is notably flamboyant, but the question was about the utility of armor; as a sorcerer, it's natural for her to eschew that, which means that from a practical standpoint, there's little difference between a dress and...whatever it is Seoni wears.

I don't think it would. How do you get a Strength that high, without magic? And wouldn't magic break that limit anyway?

If you don't think that limitation would accurately model the difference between the capacity for physical strength between the sexes (comparative to a penalty or bonus being an accurate measurement of the difference in physical strength between races), can you speak to why not?

It's certainly possible to get a Strength score that high without magic; Start with a natural 18, add in your +2 racial bonus (in Pathfinder, for humans). Then add the ability point you gain at every fourth level, and by 20th level you can get it up to 25 (women would, under this system, hit the cap at 16th level).

Presuming that these caps were for "natural" Strength only, magic would extend them, but not ultimately change anything (since you'd top out at a +6 enhancement bonus to an ability score, and a +5 inherent bonus).
 

Hmmm. Let's see, we want a game where an out of shape, asthmatic, glasses wearing nerdly 12 year old can imagine himself to be a dragon slaying elf who can cast magic missiles, but we're going to tell women that they can't imagine themselves to be really strong?

This makes sense, how?
 

Hmmm. Let's see, we want a game where an out of shape, asthmatic, glasses wearing nerdly 12 year old can imagine himself to be a dragon slaying elf who can cast magic missiles, but we're going to tell women that they can't imagine themselves to be really strong?

This makes sense, how?

This particular point has already been raised and responded to:

Alzrius said:
There's a persistent argument that because there are a large number of fantastic elements in the game world, rules that seek to enforce any real-world condition or situation that doesn't have broad applicability is somehow "missing the point." In other words, that because clearly fantastic elements have been introduced, any assumption that any aspect of the game world follows how we would expect things to function in the real world is faulty.

I put forth that this presumption is backward. It's more rational, to my mind, to presume that everything works the way it would in the real world unless the game specifically tells us otherwise. Now, there's a very credible argument to be made that this wouldn't be true for various societal constructs - e.g. that magic, monsters, and interventionist deities would make for very different social, economic, and political systems than anything seen in the real world - but insofar as the basic nature of creatures and things that do exist in the real world are concerned, some presumption of fidelity to their real counterparts is certainly not a vice.

To help drive the point home, here's an except from the homepage of Sean K Reynolds on this exact topic:

Sean K Reynolds said:
D&D is written for humans. It's written by humans from the perspective of humans, and when comparisons are made, they're made to a baseline human. Things that aren't outright stated in the D&D should be assumed to be human-normal. Huge parts of the game are built around the human as the standard, from armor class (the default AC of 10 is the AC of your average unarmored human) to attack rolls (your average unarmed human with no special training has about a 50% chance -- 10+ on a d20 -- of hitting another average unarmored human with a punch) to saving throws (default DCs are set according to what your average human could resist, dodge, or survive) to skill checks (DC 10 is something your average unskilled guy could succeed at about 50% of the time). With this humanocentric view, it should be clear that if there is no listed answer to a question, the answer almost certainly is the same as asking the question about a human.
How do bugbears poop? Just like a human.
Where do gnomes have body hair? In the same places humans do.
How good is an aboleth's sense of smell? About as good as a human.
How spicy is too spicy to an aasimar? About as much as a human would consider too spicy.

Of course, this comparison doesn't hold up to creatures that obviously resemble nonhuman real-world creatures. If asked about the sense of smell or taste preferences of a pegasus, I'd compare it to a horse. If asked what sort of meat owlbears prefer, fish or chicken, I'd find out what real bears like. But for undead, the closest comparison is to humans, since most undead are made from humans (or other humanoids, which bring the comparison back to humans again).

Now, I want to make it clear that Sean K Reynolds is not using this particular argument to advocate that we should have rules for sex-based differences in Strength scores. For that matter, I'm not advocating for it either - I'm pointing out that, insofar as the debate against them goes, the opinion expressed above by Ratskinner can be condensed down to "simulationism, at least to that degree, is stupid in a fantasy game."

I don't think that's true, at least any more so than any other personal opinion.
 

If you don't think that limitation would accurately model the difference between the capacity for physical strength between the sexes (comparative to a penalty or bonus being an accurate measurement of the difference in physical strength between races), can you speak to why not?

It's certainly possible to get a Strength score that high without magic; Start with a natural 18, add in your +2 racial bonus (in Pathfinder, for humans). Then add the ability point you gain at every fourth level, and by 20th level you can get it up to 25 (women would, under this system, hit the cap at 16th level).

Presuming that these caps were for "natural" Strength only, magic would extend them, but not ultimately change anything (since you'd top out at a +6 enhancement bonus to an ability score, and a +5 inherent bonus).

You were talking about 1e, I believe, where you didn't naturally gain stats. (Unless you did, never played that edition.)
 

You were talking about 1e, I believe, where you didn't naturally gain stats. (Unless you did, never played that edition.)

I wasn't talking about 1E specifically, save to reference that its sex-based ability limitations were caps, rather than penalties (if I recall correctly).
 

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