D&D 5E Spectres, Hit point loss and temp HP

[KarinsDad]

Which aspect of a maximum are you having comprehension problems with?

In your interpretation, the PC loses 5 temp hit points plus 10 actual hit points when he takes 10 points of damage at full hit points. Effectively, he takes 15 points of damage instead of 10. But if he has 5 or more fewer current hit points, he would only be taking 10 effective points of damage.


Yeah, this conversation is over, at least from me. When the math does not support someone's POV and they do not even look at that, it's time to leave.

Have fun with your game.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

The so-called "mathematical" argument was self-evidently specious from the beginning. When an effect, such as a Life Drain attack, reduces one's maximum hit points below the level of one's current hit points one's current hit points are reduced to reflect the new maximum. Because that is the very definition of maximum. Mr. Mearls et al did not feel the need to mention that other effects which reduce maximum hit points, such as level 4 exhaustion, also have the potential to reduce current hit points either.

So a character with 50 hit points and 5 temporary hit points who gets hit by a spectre's Life Drain attack for 10 points of damage, AND THEN FAILS A SAVE, has the potential to lose even more. Terrible, I know. Don't let the door hit your backside on your way out.

Admin here. That whole "don't let the door hit you" is flat-out, obnoxiously rude. It's totally fine if you don't agree with someone, but we expect you to discuss it and be polite about it. If you would be offended by someone saying it to you, don't say it to someone else, right?

Please avoid this in the future. - Piratecat

 

[Joe Liker]

In the Temporary Hit Points section, temp hp are described as "a buffer against damage." It says they "absorb damage directed at you," and they "are separate from your actual hit points."

It's pretty clear that temp hp are considered to reduce the amount of damage actually taken by the character. Ruling 1 is correct.

 

[Raunalyn]

So a character with 50 hit points and 5 temporary hit points who gets hit by a spectre's Life Drain attack for 10 points of damage, AND THEN FAILS A SAVE, has the potential to lose even more. Terrible, I know. Don't let the door hit your backside on your way out.

I disagree, because life drain has very specific wording.

"The target must succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or its hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the damage taken (emphasis mine). This reduction lasts until the creature finishes a long rest. The target dies if this effect reduces its hit point maximum to 0"

The Temps act as a buffer. So, in your example, if a character has 50 hit points and 5 temps, and then takes 10 points of damage from a life drain attack, 5 points of it are reduced by the temp hit points. So, therefore, he's only taking 5 points of damage from the attack, which means his hit point maximum is reduced by the amount of damage he is taking (5 hit points)

 

[Shadowdweller00]

I disagree, because life drain has very specific wording.

"The target must succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or its hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the damage taken (emphasis mine). This reduction lasts until the creature finishes a long rest. The target dies if this effect reduces its hit point maximum to 0"

The issue I have with this interpretation is that the same language (i.e. "damage taken") is used for damage applied both before AND after temporary hit points. Temporary hit points do quite literally act as a buffer - they allow a character to take more damage before dying. That is not, however, quite the same as saying that they reduce the damage taken by some amount.

 

[77IM]

I like the distinction between "damage dealt" and "damage taken."

1. Damage dealt = the damage roll + the attacker's modifiers, multipliers, extra dice, additives, flavoring, etc.
2. Damage taken = damage dealt - the defender's modifiers, multipliers, reductions, deductions, tax credits, etc.
3. New hit point total = old hit point total - damage taken

I think the easiest solution is to put temporary hit points into the category of defender's modifiers, multipliers, etc. Otherwise step 3 gets way more complicated.

I still think the name "temporary hit points" is misleading. If we called it "ablative damage reduction" it could function exactly the same mechanically, but would not cause this same confusion.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

I still think the name "temporary hit points" is misleading. If we called it "ablative damage reduction" it could function exactly the same mechanically, but would not cause this same confusion.

Perhaps that IS in fact what the devs intended, but uhh...the thing is, from a purely fluffy perspective the majority of the time when effects grant temporary hit points (Armor of Agathys being one exception), they are described as granting extra vigor, verve, morale, resolve. Not in terms of something protective.

 

[Anth]

If you see it RAI instead of RAW it's much easier and more obvious.
Life Drain (as the Wraith/Spectre-power is called) is the 5E-version of the old energy drain, meaning that it's a dreadful effect that you can't get rid of.

The Life Drain effect mean that you take damage that you can not heal, except with a long rest.

That is the RAI of Life Drain.
So what does this mean?
Fighter has 40 MAX hit points and 10 temp hit points.
Wraith hits him for 15 points of damage.
Fighter fails save.
Fighter loses 10 temporary hp that he can't heal (but this isn't interesting as you don't heal temp hp).
Fighter loses 5 real hp that he can't heal (rules wise we say that his max hp is reduced with 5 points).

 

[Quartz]

How would this affect a shapechanged druid? Suppose a druid's animal form gets drained by 10 HP: if the druid shapechanges again before a long rest, is the new animal form's HP reduced by 10?

 

[jrowland]

I tend to rule in FAVOR of the PCs in things like this. As DM I can adjust on the fly the difficulty of an encounter, Players cannot do that to their their PCs.

Therefore Option 1. If I think that makes spectres and wraiths weak, an extra one or two will materialize. Solved.