D&D General The Crab Bucket Fallacy

I have been working, mostly in concept, on a Warlord based on the 5.0 Warlock shape.

The concept sketch is:
  • First-level choice is your Leadership Style, which determines your Leadership modifier: Bravura (Cha), Tactical (Int), Observant (Wis).
  • Warlock spell slots become Strategems--you have to practice them with your group in advance, hence why you can't have too many available at any given time.
  • At 2nd, you begin to pick up Machinations (=Invocations), the various tricks and tools that factor into your specific way of leading.
  • At 3rd, you pick your Specialty, your subclass proper, which gives you the key thing you do. E.g. the Mage-Captain specializes in amplifying magical attacks and getting the most out of spellcasting, while the Commando makes the best use of stealth tactics and precision damage. The Field Medic would be the pure healing-focused one, for example; all other forms would have passable healing, on par with something like a Bard, not a Life Cleric.
  • Potentially--if it survives playtesting--I'd like to have some kind of build up and expending of a resource, Gambit or Grit or something like that. This would act as a gate on the better Strategems or unlock better/cooler/more useful features of workhorse ones.
Just as with the Warlock, some Warlord Machinations would require that you have a specific Specialty and/or Style, and would be keyed off your Warlord level, not your character level. The base class would get Light and Medium armor and shield proficiency, simple weapons, and a small selection of martial weapons (with, presumably, some options to get heavier armor and/or heavier weapons.)

The one sticking point is that I still haven't come up with an effective, and more importantly thematic, mechanical alternative for Eldritch Arcana. Once that's solved, the core concept is ready, just needs the mechanical details filled in so testing can begin.


I mean, when I'm saying the magic IS the problem, it's a bit hard to just sweep it under the rug. But alright. I was using the background to show that anyone can be good at Cha skills if they want; the background isn't the special part here, other than the access to magic.

But the Wizard's access to magic lets it do a ton of incredibly powerful things all by character level 3. Continuous advantage on all Cha checks for an hour--no downsides. Meanwhile, we had to wait through six months of playtesting to get...uh...2/day (+1 per short rest) getting to add 1d10 to ability checks.

That's literally just getting a suped-up cantrip, except now it's limited to 3-4 uses per day. (Specifically, this is a superchaged guidance.)


Then you are overlooking the actual gold mine. Charm person is actually very limited, needing a second spell (disguise self) or special circumstances (people you're unlikely to ever meet again) to be any good. I listed a few before, but here they are again, along with a few more for comprehensiveness. Cantrip: It's not on the Wizard list, but as mentioned, guidance is awesome. 1st: disguise self, find familiar, silvery barbs (only if the DM actually has NPCs roll checks, not just fiat declare results). 2nd: alter self (upgrade from disguise self), borrowed knowledge, detect thoughts, enhance ability, gift of gab, invisibility (indirectly), suggestion. 3rd level: Not very much here actually, though clairvoyance is indirectly useful and tongues eliminates any pesky language barriers. 4th: not too many here either, but greater invisibility (again, indirect) and Mordenkainen's private sanctum (safe diplomatic space that can't be eavesdropped on) have their uses. 5th: dominate person (note, it does not say the target knows you did this!), geas, modify memory, Rary's telepathic bond, and skill empowerment are all quite good.

Is that a sufficient accounting? Looking just for "inflicts the charmed condition" is a poor approach for finding the very good social-affecting spells. The reason charmed is useful is that it grants advantage on all social rolls. Enhance ability can do that with one small restriction (only Cha, not all social rolls) and zero downsides. Note also that I am NOT saying a single Wizard absolutely has to have every single one of these prepared. They don't. This is just a shortlist of the really good social and/or versatile spells a social-focused Wizard would want.


I am of the opinion that spotlight balance is an idea that sounds wonderful...and doesn't work.


The problem is, the game encourages players to selfishly work to make sure that the things they're great at are the ones that happen the most--and to reshape the process of play to facilitate this. The dirt-simple version of this is "uh oh, Cleric's out of spells, guess we'd better rest for the day so we don't get killed." The Wizard has the same issue.


If they don't care, why should we care about what they think? They literally wouldn't care either way, so it doesn't matter.


I fear I can't respond to points that might theoretically be made. I hope that is an acceptable answer.

I would agree that out of all the social enhancing skills, Enhance Ability is the best. So if you have a class that can take it and you know one of your party members is going to be making a specific type of check within the next hour and you have the spell slots available it can be quite useful. I had a party with a druid that used it to good effect on a fairly regular basis.

But the target is any creature you touch. You can make someone in the party better at checks based on that ability. It's a good support spell that could, for example buff the fighter's persuasion checks for an hour. It's also not a wizard spell, but that's a different issue.
 

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I don't mind 5e-derived games at all, but I really wish folks would promote and play other games altogether rather than demand WotC squeeze everything they want into D&D. There are games for every taste out there. The core three doesn't need to encompass every playstyle.

And I say this not because I play WotC 5e, but because what they publish has a Borg effect on the rest of the industry, and the more second-rate versions of stuff they force into their game, the more likely other 5e developers will feel constrained to follow suit and allow themselves to be assimilated into the Collective.
I think the core issue is that D&D often says you can be X,Y, or Z to suck you in but its simple mechanics and appeal to traditionalist mean the mechanics don't allow it.

I mean D&D says that your fighter can be a noble knight or wily aristocrat but fighters lack Persuasion and Deception nor a class skill bonus in 2014.

Because the mechanics were designed for your fighter to dump Cha and be a big dumb brute. Do not talk nor think unless your party needed muscle.

The mechanics were kept simple and that hurt range of concepts.
 

Then you are overlooking the actual gold mine. Charm person is actually very limited, needing a second spell (disguise self) or special circumstances (people you're unlikely to ever meet again) to be any good. I listed a few before, but here they are again, along with a few more for comprehensiveness. Cantrip: It's not on the Wizard list, but as mentioned, guidance is awesome. 1st: disguise self, find familiar, silvery barbs (only if the DM actually has NPCs roll checks, not just fiat declare results). 2nd: alter self (upgrade from disguise self), borrowed knowledge, detect thoughts, enhance ability, gift of gab, invisibility (indirectly), suggestion. 3rd level: Not very much here actually, though clairvoyance is indirectly useful and tongues eliminates any pesky language barriers. 4th: not too many here either, but greater invisibility (again, indirect) and Mordenkainen's private sanctum (safe diplomatic space that can't be eavesdropped on) have their uses. 5th: dominate person (note, it does not say the target knows you did this!), geas, modify memory, Rary's telepathic bond, and skill empowerment are all quite good.

Is that a sufficient accounting?
Sure - thank you.

I am of the opinion that spotlight balance is an idea that sounds wonderful...and doesn't work.
Seems to work for our table. People play fighters alongside bards and wizards in our games. Everyone is contributing and having fun. I don't think we're outliers. But, I am hearing the underlying assertion in your opinion: Your experience clearly is different when it comes to DM and players sharing the spotlight.

The problem is, the game encourages players to selfishly work to make sure that the things they're great at are the ones that happen the most--and to reshape the process of play to facilitate this. The dirt-simple version of this is "uh oh, Cleric's out of spells, guess we'd better rest for the day so we don't get killed." The Wizard has the same issue.
Maybe? I personally think this is more of a social contract issue than anything to do with the game. If the players are collaborating and sharing the spotlight, they'll discuss and do what's best for the group - and what's best for the group might be doing what's best mechanically or what's best story-wise or, most commonly, a mix of the two.


I guess I can sum up my take on this whole issue as such:

- At our table, we don't currently see any problem with martial characters that affects our 5e game play goals: to have fun and to create an exciting, memorable story.

- I understand, and respect, that others are far more concerned with mechanical balance than I am. Perhaps it has something to do with me missing 2nd through 4th editions, but it truly isn't a concern for our table.

- An improved fighter getting some new abilities really wouldn't fundamentally affect gameplay at our table. I mean, we certainly might be interested and curious about some shiny new abilities - I do think I would find those fun. But I don't feel that would make our game play experience any better (or worse) than before. All players at our table, regardless of their character's build, contribute to all pillars of play by choice and by working together.

- All that said, bring on the improved fighter/martials if that's what makes a bunch of people happy. I'd honestly be glad for that outcome.
 
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I think the core issue is that D&D often says you can be X,Y, or Z to suck you in but its simple mechanics and appeal to traditionalist mean the mechanics don't allow it.

I mean D&D says that your fighter can be a noble knight or wily noble but fighters lack Persuasion and Deception nor a class skill bonus in 2014.

Because the mechanics were design for your fighter to dump Cha and be a big dumb brute and not talk nor think unless your party needed muscle.

The mechanics were kept simple and that hurt range of concepts.
I've long been an advocate for all games being honest about what kind of characters and play they support. And to be fair, most games are.
 

The premise is correct.
No, it's not. It is only correct if your campaign makes it correct.

Our warlock has, under no possible way, outshined any of the martials. In our last campaign, our rogue outshined everyone with a few exceptions, such as our bard during specific scenarios.

This is such a false statement. I can't think of a 5e campaign I have played in (and I have played in many with many different people) where the wizard or warlock were OP compared to the martials.
 

I guess I can sum up my take on this whole issue as such:

- At our table, we don't currently see any problem with martial characters that affects our game 5e play goals: to have fun and to create an exciting, memorable story.

- I understand, and respect, that others are far more concerned with mechanical balance than I am. Perhaps it has something to do with me missing 2nd through 4th editions, but it truly isn't a concern for our table.

- An improved fighter getting some new abilities really wouldn't fundamentally affect gameplay at our table. I mean, we certainly might be interested and curious about some shiny new abilities - I do think I would find those fun. But I don't feel that would make our game play experience any better (or worse) than before. All players at our table, regardless of their character's build, contribute to all pillars of play by choice and by working together.

- All that said, bring on the improved fighter/martials if that's what makes a bunch of people happy. I'd honestly be glad for that outcome.
My problem is how non-magical classes are so absurdly stagnant. If I were to play a non-caster then I would need to play one that got impactful class abilities as you level up because otherwise you don't really feel any improvement.

It's really weird, in my opinion, how, for example, it's not really possible to make a fighter that markedly improves, as you level up, in anything but fighting capability. Why isn't mobility improving? Why is your lifting power not improving? Why isn't your ability to intimidate improving?

But a wizard goes from being able to teleport a 30 feet to being able to teleport between planes, and create walls from nothing, and being able to etc. etc.

It really feels like two different games.
 

I've long been an advocate for all games being honest about what kind of characters and play they support. And to be fair, most games are.
D&D's dishonesty is why there are crabs even in the bucket.

The focus is always on the Stereotypical PCs:
  1. The big dumb strong heavy armored fighter
  2. The undead hating heavy healbot cleric
  3. The blatantly criminal thief rogue
  4. The master of all magic wizard
These four crabs are outside the bucket laughing their way back into the sea.

Play any of these four in any of the five editions and you will have no problems. Go against of the grain and pick something else or tweak the character and you're running into a crapshoot depending on which edition.
 

My problem is how non-magical classes are so absurdly stagnant. If I were to play a non-caster then I would need to play one that got impactful class abilities as you level up because otherwise you don't really feel any improvement.

It's really weird, in my opinion, how, for example, it's not really possible to make a fighter that markedly improves, as you level up, in anything but fighting capability. Why isn't mobility improving? Why is your lifting power not improving? Why isn't your ability to intimidate improving?

But a wizard goes from being able to teleport a 30 feet to being able to teleport between planes, and create walls from nothing, and being able to etc. etc.

It really feels like two different games.
I understand that premise. And, there is even something that can be said towards that. I remember in a thread not too long ago that I mentioned maybe a fighter can go above strength 20, perhaps to 30, to show this improvement. It's not something I think is needed, but for others, it seems like it might be a good house rule.
On the other hand, a fighter gets 2 extra ability score improvements. In my opinion, if you are using feats, this can absolutely lead to that improvement some players talk about.
 

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