D&D General The Crab Bucket Fallacy

I understand that, as far as you're concerned, this is a significant fix, but for me it really isn't. The fact that the buff isn't exclusive to the Wizard doesn't make it better. Self-casting is, of course, an issue. But the alternative is that the Fighter is now dependent on the Wizard's benevolent aid. Even if it is genuinely meant as kindness, it can be very grating. I don't know if you've ever been in an experience in your life where you had to depend on the kindness/charity of others in order to get by, but it sucks. Having even the ghost of that feeling in a TTRPG...is a very sour experience.

So, one spell doesn't make for you always being dependent on the wizard for everything, or even dependent on the wizard for one thing all the time. Indeed, that spell doesn't make anyone automatically succeed or anything - it is just giving a boost.

I always thought this was supposed to be a cooperative game, in which characters were expected to give each other help on a pretty regular basis.
 

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Have you ever thought about playing the fighter from the playtest with the noncombat options? I think I can send you a copy if you don't have one.
Are the pre-2014 PHB playtests still available? If I had them I deleted them, and I'm now curious what those options were.
 

So, one spell doesn't make for you always being dependent on the wizard for everything, or even dependent on the wizard for one thing all the time. Indeed, that spell doesn't make anyone automatically succeed or anything - it is just giving a boost.

I always thought this was supposed to be a cooperative game, in which characters were expected to give each other help on a pretty regular basis.
Okay. What happens the next time, then? Or the time after that?

Treating it as a rare isolated event doesn't really reflect actual play, as far as I can tell. The Fighter gets to be good at social rolls because the Wizard let them be good at social rolls.
 

Okay. What happens the next time, then? Or the time after that?

Treating it as a rare isolated event doesn't really reflect actual play, as far as I can tell. The Fighter gets to be good at social rolls because the Wizard let them be good at social rolls.
Do the fighters you see never do things their wizard can't?
It's a cooperative team game , find a way for the wizard to depend on you and mash that way as often as possible till it goes from a ome directional "yea that's my BSF.. I guess." To "that's my freaking wizard" with an enthusiastic agreement from the wizard.
 


Just to confirm, the issue as it is, is that Fighters dont get any Social Features, in the core of the class for example, not that there are not options (Background, or Subclass) to facilitate these functions, right?

Because I was looking over Fighter subclasses for a project and...there are options.
 


Indeed. And I enforce language and language proficiency.

So a fighter with 8 Cha can easily be the only one who can talk to a person.

The point is this is a team game and the other members of the team can easily hog the spotlight in pillars of the game and the game mechanically encourages it.


The settings. The Art. The diseigner's interviews. The suggested inspirational works.

I think I'm explaining it the wrong way.

The issue is Ability scores. and the d20.

Strength: Combat and Exploration
Dexterity: Combat and Exploration
Constitution: Combat and errr... most DM don't roll Con Exploration rolls. I do but I don't see it often from others.
Intelligence: Exploration
Wisdom: Social Exploration
Charisma: Social and Exploration


You can only put your 16 in one* of them. And as you level, you can only afford to level 1 score. Which means that you only can use you main score to 2 pillars at best. Which wouldn't be so bad if not for the ability modifiers being so low compared to a d20. You are encouraged to heavily focus on only that one leaving the rest to rot.

So you end up relying of class features. And class focus of the pillars are all over the place. And D&D doesn't tell you any of this, you have to figure it out.

You see D&D was orignally a gamewhere the only stats were Combat stats. The games changed. The stats didn't.

Many DMs figured out ways around this issues but none of that is in these books WOTC sold. Even WOTC say their DMG sucks.

I just realized, this is kind of a funny thing about D&D. The biggest difference between the physical stats (str, dex, con) and the mental stats (int, wis, cha) is that the mental stats have combat utility only if you're the right character class. Anybody can pick up a club and use strength to swing it in a fight - you might not be as good at it as the fighter or barbarian, but the option is still there, and you might need to do it in an anti-magic field, or if you don't have a finesse weapon handy. Anybody can use dexterity to throw a knife. But the non-skill application of intelligence, the bonus to spell attacks, only works with wizard spells. If you aren't a wizard, you aren't just worse at using intelligence in combat - that half of the intelligence ability flat-out doesn't exist for you. The fighter who wants to put a 14 in intelligence or charisma instead of dexterity or constitution is basically putting their 14 in half a stat.
 

Do you have any references at all to back this up?
and do they actually say what is being claimed, or some other thing that can be read into very hard to “find” the claimed statement?
I understand that, as far as you're concerned, this is a significant fix, but for me it really isn't. The fact that the buff isn't exclusive to the Wizard doesn't make it better. Self-casting is, of course, an issue. But the alternative is that the Fighter is now dependent on the Wizard's benevolent aid. Even if it is genuinely meant as kindness, it can be very grating. I don't know if you've ever been in an experience in your life where you had to depend on the kindness/charity of others in order to get by, but it sucks. Having even the ghost of that feeling in a TTRPG...is a very sour experience.
Man I’ve been there, too. It is brutally bad. Mess with your head for years bad.
Im not sure how to avoid that ghost without eliminating feature that can be used selfishly or as teamwork, though. And that’s…important. The game suffers without that.
No, it isn't. Because I have repeatedly rejected that claim, thoroughly and extensively.

What I am saying is, you must have SOMETHING that comes from your class that is actually a serious, meaningful contribution.
This is exactly the claim that I and others disagree with, and that simply is not objectively true.
The playtest Fighter finally has the barest, slimmest bit of actual benefit here. It's still weak as hell--roughly 4/day super-Guidance by sacrificing your self-heals--but it's now more than "you literally get no tools from being a Fighter that aren't tools everyone else gets."

I have repatedly and explicitly rejected the claim that the Fighter must be exactly as good as, say, a Bard or Wizard or Sorcerer. You are injecting this into what I said with no basis.
What does keeping up mean to you?
But if something is a "pillar" of the game, that means it's a vital, essential part of play. Class is the lion's share of a character's tools for doing anything. No class should be designed to bring no tools to the table for the pillars.
No class is. Some classes are built to make it optional.
The zero point for a character's tools to do stuff in the social and exploration pillars are four skills (two from class, two from background) and, usually, a couple of other miscellaneous proficiencies (usually instruments or games), and sometimes a language.
Two skills from class. The fighter has multiple skills that can be useful in social challenges on their list. They also have subclasses that being more to social encounters.
A class must go beyond the zero point. It doesn't have to be that far. It certainly doesn't need to be at the level of Wizard/Sorc, Cleric, Druid, or Bard spells. Tactical Mind falls short, but not by a huge margin; the issues are largely its few uses and requirement that you sacrifice critical healing resources to power it. Imagine if Wizards had to sacrifice hit dice to cast spells! Wizards would be howling for blood. By comparison, the old Remarkable Athlete was dramatically worse than Tactical Mind, and the Battlemaster getting one niche tool proficiency was likewise inadequate. Reliable Talent, from the Rogue, is actually a very good class-derived tool for skill stuff; coupled with Expertise and the ways various subclasses contribute, Rogue is mostly fine on this front.

Spitballing a Fighter feature I would consider appropriate, with the caveat that this has not been tested, I cannot promise it would be balanced, I'm thinking of something like this:
Gritty Determination
At 3rd level, your single-minded determination to see a task completed carries you to greater heights. You have a pool of Grit points, equal to your highest ability modifier (minimum 1) plus your Fighter level. Any time you make an ability check that isn't an Initiative check, before you roll, you may spend points from your Grit pool to increase the result on a one for one basis. You cannot add more than your proficiency bonus to any single roll. You can spend Grit points even when you have a feature, such as Expertise, which allows you to add twice your proficiency bonus. You regain any spent Grit points when you complete a long rest. At 7th level, you also regain any spent Grit points when you complete a short rest.​

Now, perhaps it should be limited to half your proficiency bonus, or have fewer points, or whatever else. As I said, it would need testing. But the core idea here is simple, and this is a straightforward, easy-to-use feature. You have to invest many levels into Fighter before you get the short-rest recharge, so there's little fear of a lame multiclass dip. It's generically useful; it applies in cases that nobody would get proficiency in, which gives it unique utility; it stacks with other buffs like Expertise, Bardic Inspiration, guidance, etc., so there's no worry about checking compatibility; and you spend the points before you roll, so there's no "oh, I rolled a 2, there's no point" issues that I know annoy some players.

I am confident some kind of ability like this, even if subject to some balance changes, would be perfectly functional on the Fighter. It would be unique, useful, distinctive, and fairly easy to use. And this ability, while quite useful, is certainly lower-power than being an actual spellcaster.
I just want to point out that my proposal in many threads for the fighter has been to expand action surge into basically legendary actions and expand Indomitable into basically legendary d20 tests. Like literally turn a failed ability check or save into a success x/LR. I still think that it’s a great idea to set the fighter apart, call the save/check one Heroic Determination.
Then why do classes even exist? Seriously. What do they do if they're literally not meant to give you the tools you use to contribute?
What on earth is this hyperbolic nonsense!?

You’ve leapt heroically from “each class does not have to give unique and siloed features to every pillar, in the base class, beyond the skill list having skills for each pillar” to “classes aren’t meant to give you the tools you use to contribute”?

My hip hurts, I can’t follow you on this parkour trip across the rooftops of internet discussion.
 

and do they actually say what is being claimed, or some other thing that can be read into very hard to “find” the claimed statement?
"I want proof"
"Oh your proof is not proof. I need the game designer to say it in written interview not a video interview. Even through everything about what you said and the interviewer made sense in this 10 years old game. its one new official class that comes with the one setting that can't be printed without it. And the only other official class worked on was scrapped and the setting which required it banished."

I mean how many new official classes are there in this ten year old game. They aren't even putting it into the new PHB.

And this is from a company that vomited out new classes for money for the 2 prior edition.

It was in conversation when Eberron was released. And when Aberrant Mind Sorcerer was printed to "replace" psions.
 

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