D&D General The Crab Bucket Fallacy

[payn]

It's also extremely easy for a fighter to take a level or two of rogue to get expertise in social skills. It actually synergizes really well with a dex fighter (or strength based if any weapon can sneak attack like we do). But that, apparently, isn't good enough.

Yeap, I understand not all MC options are going to be equally effective. I think thats a cost for wholesale multi-classing that I can live with. I understand some folks like the silo'd hybrid approach of 4E/PF2, but its a bit stifling for me. I think the real key is making sure that the gaps are not insurmountable, and the bad combos few and far between. 5E hits the mark most of the time in this department. Though, I understand why that's not good enough for some folks too.

 

[tetrasodium]

But the bard, while it can be played/designed otherwise, is very much a support class. It's big strengths, outside of social, are making other classes more effective at what they do. WoTC has shown plenty of love for the 5e bard!

Don't forget your bardic inspiration
Sigh
Don't forget your bardic inspiration
Sigh
Remember you have bardic inspiration
Sigh

 

[overgeeked]

The fighter is the most chosen class. That means that people like it.

Does not follow. As pointed out in this thread (or one of the other very similar threads), fighters have a high representation on D&D Beyond, that’s where the “most chosen” comes from. It’s worth pointing out D&D Beyond is not the whole community. Further, making a character on D&D Beyond does not equate to actually playing it in a game nor liking the class. Fighters have a high dissatisfaction according to the survey reports from Crawford.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Does not follow. As pointed out in this thread (or one of the other very similar threads), fighters have a high representation on D&D Beyond, that’s where the “most chosen” comes from. It’s worth pointing out D&D Beyond is not the whole community. Further, making a character on D&D Beyond does not equate to actually playing it in a game nor liking the class. Fighters have a high dissatisfaction according to the survey reports from Crawford.

Every single statistic I have seen has fighters as the most popular class, from D&D Beyond to WoTC's release of information to polls taken at other places.

Every single table I have ever played at or run has had fighters as the most popular class.

Every time this comes up, we hear constant reports of people discussing how common fighters are at their table.

In short, there is abundant evidence regarding the popularity of fighters. Now, if you have evidence that fighters are not the most popular (most commonly-played) class, feel free to share it.

 

[overgeeked]

Every single statistic I have seen has fighters as the most popular class, from D&D Beyond to WoTC's release of information to polls taken at other places.

Based on made characters in D&D Beyond. That does not equate to anything beyond made characters on D&D Beyond.

Every single table I have ever played at or run has had fighters as the most popular class.

Not evidence, as per prior conversations with you.

Every time this comes up, we hear constant reports of people discussing how common fighters are at their table.

Not evidence, as per prior conversations with you.

In short, there is abundant evidence regarding the popularity of fighters. Now, if you have evidence that fighters are not the most popular (most commonly-played) class, feel free to share it.

Jeremy Crawford talking about dissatisfaction with fighters in the surveys.

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

So let's just stop here.

Let's assume, for just a second, that what you are saying is true. Let's assume (before getting into your multiclass hypotheticals, and your desire to optimize, and you need to put things into tiers, etc.) that you're right. That the classes aren't perfectly balanced, and won't be.

With that in mind, we can then get into the heart of the issue-

The fighter is the most chosen class. That means that people like it. They, to borrow phrase, can smell what the Rock is cooking. This is what they want.

Why do you discount what they want? Their opinions are just as valid as yours is. If people are getting what they want, then ... that's fine. Not everyone is you. It is not a fallacy to want something to different. Moreover, to tell other people that their opinions are "invalid" (as you did) or to claim that their desires are somehow the result of fallacious reasoning is the surest way to ensure that those people will most certainly not agree with what you're going to tell them.

As has been pointed out, it's not just what you say, it's also how you say it. Don't tell people why they are wrong- maybe, in the future, try and make a case for why people should agree with you because you're selling them something that they want.

I double-dog dare you to describe how totally awesome your favorite (game/playstyle) is, WITHOUT comparing it to any others.

I'm not discounting what they want, though.

1: We could buff the fighter, which cannot possibly dissatisfy these players
2: We could nerf the wizards, which cannot possibly dissatisfy these players (since they're not playing a wizard, after all)
3: We could add a new martial class balanced against the wizard, rather than balanced against the fighter (and then they still have their fighter, and if they think that fighter is weak then, well, it's still just as weak as previously compared to the wizard so there was no difference)

 

[Mort]

Don't forget your bardic inspiration
Sigh
Don't forget your bardic inspiration
Sigh
Remember you have bardic inspiration
Sigh

It's a central feature sure, and it's an excellent one - even though you mock it

But there is plenty more. Song of rest is modest, but it's free support healing.

Countercharm is explicitly support.

The spell list is very support geared. Even the signature cantrip, viscous mockery, is more support than direct damage.

Most of the subclasses have large support add ons.

Point being, it's an explicitly support class that WoTC seems pretty supportive of.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Based on made characters in D&D Beyond. That does not equate to anything beyond made characters on D&D Beyond.

Not evidence, as per prior conversations with you.

Not evidence, as per prior conversations with you.

Jeremy Crawford talking about dissatisfaction with fighters in the surveys.

How are the surveys any more representative of the player base than D&D Beyond is? Likely both are a small fraction.

 

[tetrasodium]

It's a central feature sure, and it's an excellent one - even though you mock it

But there is plenty more. Song of rest is modest, but it's free support healing.

Countercharm is explicitly support.

The spell list is very support geared. Even the signature cantrip, viscous mockery, is more support than direct damage.

Most of the subclasses have large support add ons.

Point being, it's an explicitly support class that WoTC seems pretty supportive of.

I didn't mock it, Support classes in 5e are unrewarding to play for the same reasons people so often can't be bothered remembering to use bardic inspiration.

that low value on support is so pervasive n that the 2024 bard tries to solve it with bardic inspiration by acknowledging that nobody cares and letting bard do it as a reaction rather than making enough changes for support to matter enough to be unforgettable again.
.

 

[payn]

Every single statistic I have seen has fighters as the most popular class, from D&D Beyond to WoTC's release of information to polls taken at other places.

Every single table I have ever played at or run has had fighters as the most popular class.

Every time this comes up, we hear constant reports of people discussing how common fighters are at their table.

In short, there is abundant evidence regarding the popularity of fighters. Now, if you have evidence that fighters are not the most popular (most commonly-played) class, feel free to share it.

What a lot of this data tells me is that there are two significant groups for the fighter. The casuals that like the ease of play of the class. They dont spend time on forums talking design philosophy, they just show up to have fun with their friends and likely never experience high levels. Then, the hobby enthusiasts that like the idea of a king of combat class. They do spend their time on forums talking design philosophy and experience high level. They see glaring opportunities, which leads to high dissatisfaction.

There is a conflation I believe with folks really liking the fighter and they all want it to be better/right. When I think that despite some opinions on the fighter being lesser/wrong, most folks dont care or find this to be an issue.