D&D General The Crab Bucket Fallacy

[Tony Vargas]

. I think that D&D can survive a reshuffle of its classes while still being D&D.

It couldn't even survive balancing its classes without no longer being D&D.

D&D-ness is inextricably linked to the Big 4: Magic-User/Wizard (solves most important challenges with magic), Fighter (trades hp damage with monsters that don't rate a spell, opens doors), Cleric (heals, turns undead), and Thief (expendable scout/trap-detecor).
And, yeah, 0e, for the 1 year it didn't have the Thief, fell short, in retrospect.

 

[Zardnaar]

It couldn't even survive balancing its classes without no longer being D&D.

D&D-ness is inextricably linked to the Big 4: Magic-User/Wizard (solves most important challenges with magic), Fighter (trades hp damage with monsters that don't rate a spell, opens doors), Cleric (heals, turns undead), and Thief (expendable scout/trap-detecor).
And, yeah, 0e, for the 1 year it didn't have the Thief, fell short, in retrospect.

You can't really fix D&D without ruining D&D.

This is why I'm advocating the defenses scale conceptually like AD&D and bring back 2E style spell resistance.

Yes your spells can fail those with saves will fail mire at higher levels.

 

[cbwjm]

You can't really fix D&D without ruining D&D.

This is why I'm advocating the defenses scale conceptually like AD&D and bring back 2E style spell resistance.

Yes your spells can fail those with saves will fail mire at higher levels.

Yeah, spellcasters in pre-3e were a little weird in that they gained more spell slots and more powerful spells to fill them; but at the same time saves were based on the target only (rarely did a spell affect a save) so those more powerful spells often failed against the greater threats that they faced.

I liked old school magic resistance, though they took put the rule that it's based on an 11th level caster from 2e. I'd probably bring that back in.

 

[Scott Christian]

The one who talks rolls. But usually by session 3, the group self selects the person with the highest chances of success to do the talking.

This single line explains a lot of the differences in our opinions/perception. I can't imagine a game where the person with the highest charisma is always the one talking, taking the lead, etc. I can't imagine a story like that either. It seems foreign to me, to have the other characters just sit there and be quiet, even though they may have something important to say. Or, even worse, that part of the story is about them, but they let someone else do most of the RP.

 

[Micah Sweet]

This single line explains a lot of the differences in our opinions/perception. I can't imagine a game where the person with the highest charisma is always the one talking, taking the lead, etc. I can't imagine a story like that either. It seems foreign to me, to have the other characters just sit there and be quiet, even though they may have something important to say. Or, even worse, that part of the story is about them, but they let someone else do most of the RP.

People do that in games all the time in my experience, because they want to succeed, and having the best PC for succeeding in that roll do the talking makes the most practical sense.

 

[Oofta]

This single line explains a lot of the differences in our opinions/perception. I can't imagine a game where the person with the highest charisma is always the one talking, taking the lead, etc. I can't imagine a story like that either. It seems foreign to me, to have the other characters just sit there and be quiet, even though they may have something important to say. Or, even worse, that part of the story is about them, but they let someone else do most of the RP.

I seem to recall, and correct me if I'm wrong @Minigiant, that if they fail a persuasion check the NPC immediately turns hostile. In an environment like that, of course only the person with a sky high persuasion check is going to say anything.

Personally I also expect multiple to speak up, depending on the situation the guy with the super high charisma may not be the best choice. In other cases it's just simply apparent from the situation who should be speaking. In all cases, what the player says, what points are brought up to persuade the NPC matter.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

People do that in games all the time in my experience, because they want to succeed, and having the best PC for succeeding in that roll do the talking makes the most practical sense.

If you run social interaction as a real organic conversation, you really cannot do that. The one who comes up with an idea or an argument during the conversation is the one who needs to say it. You cannot just pause the conversation and pass your ideas to a character with a better bonus. Also, sometimes arguments are personal, and may not make sense coming from someone else.

Furthermore, several people participating is beneficial, as then someone can make a supporting argument and provide an advantage for helping.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yeah, spellcasters in pre-3e were a little weird in that they gained more spell slots and more powerful spells to fill them; but at the same time saves were based on the target only (rarely did a spell affect a save) so those more powerful spells often failed against the greater threats that they faced.

I liked old school magic resistance, though they took put the rule that it's based on an 11th level caster from 2e. I'd probably bring that back in.

That's 1E. 2E is just a flat number iirc. Wg 90%. I would d20 it so 90% becomes 19 on a d20. Castles and Crusades has done this.

Or make it simple. 3 numbers 6,11, 16 for low, medium, high like the old D&D minis game.

You woukd just need to risk your best spells failing or go for no save ones like power words. Damaged dealing ones could get buffed especially higher level ones.

 

[Scott Christian]

People do that in games all the time in my experience, because they want to succeed, and having the best PC for succeeding in that roll do the talking makes the most practical sense.

They do when there is a plan set in place and the story dictates it. I get that part. But exploration and social encounters are much broader than a combat encounter. A group that's going to set a plan into motion, for example, distract the barkeep with a humorous story while the rogue does something he shouldn't. That is a plan. But...
- plans go awry all the time. Maybe the bard fails, so now the barbarian steps in and starts juggling his axes. Performance check please.
or
- The social encounter is with the group. Everyone talks. Everyone participates - just like in combat. And then, one person says something based on the conversation at hand, and boom, they need to roll. For example:

The group of four walk up to the satyr they need information from.
Bard: Satyr, we have come to ask for a favor, a small favor. A favor so small, that all it will take is a few seconds of your time and a single breath.
The satyr grins.
Bard: Would you please give us the location of that rare tree named Yellowroot?
The DM thinks for a second.
Satyr: That would require several sentences, and that is more than one breath. So, no.
Wizard: We need the location of that tree. It's important. Someone's life is hanging in the balance. Surely you want to help.
Satyr: Help? Yes. You? No. And please don't call me Shirley.
Bard: So you are going to let a person die because you don't like us? Be reasonable.
Satyr: A reason, with reason, is unreasonable.
Rogue: Sighs. I didn't want to give this up, but I will. What if I give you this bottle of Starfish wine. It is straight from the Captain's locker of one of the most renowned boats that sail the coastline not far from here. I hear it doesn't make you drunk, but rather exceptionally drunk.
DM: Make a persuasion roll.

I mean, seeing that we don't get to watch each other's games, the only thing we have to go on is what games are out there online. I haven't watched a ton, but the episodes I have seen are full of encounters similar to this. The same is true for the exploration pillar. Many times, the best person for the job isn't the one performing the action because circumstances and character motives/impulses dictate otherwise.

 

[Micah Sweet]

They do when there is a plan set in place and the story dictates it. I get that part. But exploration and social encounters are much broader than a combat encounter. A group that's going to set a plan into motion, for example, distract the barkeep with a humorous story while the rogue does something he shouldn't. That is a plan. But...
- plans go awry all the time. Maybe the bard fails, so now the barbarian steps in and starts juggling his axes. Performance check please.
or
- The social encounter is with the group. Everyone talks. Everyone participates - just like in combat. And then, one person says something based on the conversation at hand, and boom, they need to roll. For example:

The group of four walk up to the satyr they need information from.
Bard: Satyr, we have come to ask for a favor, a small favor. A favor so small, that all it will take is a few seconds of your time and a single breath.
The satyr grins.
Bard: Would you please give us the location of that rare tree named Yellowroot?
The DM thinks for a second.
Satyr: That would require several sentences, and that is more than one breath. So, no.
Wizard: We need the location of that tree. It's important. Someone's life is hanging in the balance. Surely you want to help.
Satyr: Help? Yes. You? No. And please don't call me Shirley.
Bard: So you are going to let a person die because you don't like us? Be reasonable.
Satyr: A reason, with reason, is unreasonable.
Rogue: Sighs. I didn't want to give this up, but I will. What if I give you this bottle of Starfish wine. It is straight from the Captain's locker of one of the most renowned boats that sail the coastline not far from here. I hear it doesn't make you drunk, but rather exceptionally drunk.
DM: Make a persuasion roll.

I mean, seeing that we don't get to watch each other's games, the only thing we have to go on is what games are out there online. I haven't watched a ton, but the episodes I have seen are full of encounters similar to this. The same is true for the exploration pillar. Many times, the best person for the job isn't the one performing the action because circumstances and character motives/impulses dictate otherwise.

Online games tend to emphasize performance over practicality by the rules (see literally every episode of Critical Role). I don't generally see them as realistic to the experience for most folks.