D&D 5E What rule(s) is 5e missing?

[Reynard]

Perhaps what you are missing is the actual quote that brought up the DC 20 Cha check:



And the actual rules being quoted (DMG pg 245):

DC	Hostile Creature's Reaction
0	The creature opposes the adventurers' actions and might take risks to do so.
10	The creature offers no help but does no harm.
20	The creature does as asked as long as no risks or sacrifices are involved.

Your desired result of "We don't' kill you, you don't kill us" sounds like a modified roll of 10 or better to me, if a roll is being called for by the DM.

I think it depends on the consequences of getting caught. What if the PCs fail to kill their boss?

I'm not arguing your overall point, I am more re-emphasizing my position that this isn't a really good example for a skill check. I don't think there is a lot of uncertainty, given the GM knows what the contextual details are behind such a decision.

 

[tetrasodium]

First, go upthread to see what I had to say about Guidance, and almost immediately, I got a response verifying the typical stance on it's use in social interaction.

Second, +9 vs. a DC 20 is a fail case of 45%. So...better than a coin flip for 10th level character. Wow, amazing.

And finally, third, we shouldn't expect or require Expertise using characters to parlay with friggin' monsters. It's a time honored tradition and the foundation of the Interaction Tier....and a thing one does in a roleplaying game.

We are talking about the gam with rules wotc made. What was said about guidance is largely outside of those rules.

A fail chance of 45% might sound staggering in vacuum, but again it's dramatically lower than the fail chance on the all time best batting average that came up earlier & pretty darned low as a result.

and that same DC 20 with a party with no one prof (let alone expertise and in a situation that the DM rules can't benefit from help or guidance) you could have the best roll be +4 vs DC 20...

What if nobody in the party is proficient in persuade?... This is persuade not left handed underwater basket weaving. Even if nobody is proficient in one of the more common skills like that the answer is that they have other skills and abilities that they will need to use instead even if they need to use them creatively.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

I think it depends on the consequences of getting caught. What if the PCs fail to kill their boss?

Isn't that after the Social Interaction with the minions ends, though? So it's an entirely new cycle that needs to be resolved later.

I'm not arguing your overall point, I am more re-emphasizing my position that this isn't a really good example for a skill check. I don't think there is a lot of uncertainty, given the GM knows what the contextual details are behind such a decision.

Oh, most definitely.

I haven't really seen a full scenario provided, which is why I added: "if a roll is being called for by the DM"

 

[GMforPowergamers]

What if nobody in the party is proficient in persuade?... This is persuade not left handed underwater basket weaving.

okay but all skills are not equal for cross over. You can argue for acrobatics and athletics to have some over lap, and religion and arcana and the general knowledge's. but when you talk to people you get 3 skills and there isn't much overlap at all.

Even if nobody is proficient in one of the more common skills like that the answer is that they have other skills and abilities that they will need to use instead even if they need to use them creatively.

okay, so you want to avoid a fight and talk it out... so you do a push up for insight? or wait you do a back flip... or climb the wall

 

[Swarmkeeper]

so again... you can argue that the other poster got the rules wrong... leave me out of it.

Which poster? The one I quoted got the rules exactly right.

Others here seem to be lamenting "unfair" rules when seemingly misapplying them.

My response here is truly intended to clear up confusion of any newer DM following along. The rules you choose to follow or ignore at your table is really up to you.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Which poster? The one I quoted got the rules exactly right.

Others here seem to be lamenting "unfair" rules when seemingly misapplying them.

My response here is truly intended to clear up confusion of any newer DM following along. The rules you choose to follow or ignore at your table is really up to you.

and again they didn't post a chart like you did, they said it would be a DC 20... I pushed back that dc20 is crazy (look how few ACs are in 20's and getting a magic +1 to hit is WAY easier then +1 to a skill)

"hard ACs" are not 25... I'm not even sure there are more than 5 ACs above 5 and I would bet all would be Monsters CR 18+. However ANY level 'hard' check is DC 20 or 25.

attacks are stat mod+ prof + magic item (maybe advantage or bless or guidence)
skills are stat mod + prof (maybe advantage or guidence but magic items more rare)

now rogue and bard do get to double there prof on some skills... but I have been told if fighters doubled prof on weapon attacks that would break the system wide open... but again why are ACs treated different than ACs?

 

[Swarmkeeper]

and again they didn't post a chart like you did, they said it would be a DC 20... I pushed back that dc20 is crazy (look how few ACs are in 20's and getting a magic +1 to hit is WAY easier then +1 to a skill)

They paraphrased the line of DC 20 from that table in the DMG.

You are refusing to accept that for some reason that hasn't been made clear, IMO.

Happy gaming

 

[GMforPowergamers]

They paraphrased the line of DC 20 from that table in the DMG,

You are refusing to accept that for some reason that hasn't been made clear, IMO.

Happy gaming

I am refuseing to accept "don't use the DC that was given in the example" as an answer to the problem.

 

[glass]

It calls itself Good while explicitly targeting Neutral folks for suffering.

It's not like it 'accidently' hurts neutrals, it has a line especially calling out how it hurts neutral people differently.

I am not sure which version of holy word you are talking about, but the one on AoN (which TBF is not technically D&D) does not say anything specifically about neutrals, it simply exempts good characters. It specifically targets neutral creatures exactly as much as fireball does (which is to say not at all).

Again the success chance is about double or better the batting average record brought up a few times earlier.

I am no expert on baseball, but I am given to understand that batters face a lot of balls and are expected to miss a lot of them, because they'll get another go at it right after. That would seem to make it a poor analogy for a skill check that you get one chance at, before lethal violence ensues.

_
glass.

 

[Reynard]

Isn't that after the Social Interaction with the minions ends, though? So it's an entirely new cycle that needs to be resolved later.

No, because the potential consequences affect whether the NOCs are taking on any personal risk, which changes the DC. This is why the GM needs to have a good idea of the attitudes, motivations and circumstances of the NPCs. But if you know all that, you probably don't need to roll.