Counter to Spike Growth?

I'm DMing my group through PotA and we're all having a great time.
The party have discovered that having the druid cast Spike Growth at any group of mooks is a sure-fire way to take them out of battle, and the monk will often cast Silence at anyone who looks like a caster.

Now, one part of me is happy that they've hit on a sound strategy for combat, but another part of me is a little frustrated that they walkover pretty much every combat encounter. So, I'm wondering about ways to counter the use of these spells..?
One thought that just occurred to me is to make a point of having the mooks spread about in any encounter area so that there isn't an obvious focus for the Spike Growth spell.
I'm also wondering if there is some way that the cults get to know that the party often use Spike Growth and so they know to target the druid in an attempt to break concentration.
Any other thoughts?

Flying monsters can, of course, bypass spike growth without issue, and the main weakness of Silence is that the zone doesn't move so dudes can just walk out of it if there's nothing stopping them from doing so.

Beyond that, if there are trees or buildings nearby, the monsters can try to climb to avoid the spikes, or just try to jump over them. Depending on their position and ability scores, though, this might not be a good option.

Another good option is to throw down something to use as a stepping stone. A large rock, or a dead body, for instance. I recall that when I was DMing PotA, some particularly evil cultists actually threw their own mooks into the spikes to make a path for the others.

Another trick specific to Earth cultists would be to give one of them Move Earth. Target the area of the Spike Growth and have the spell level out the terrain, effectively cancelling it. Counterspell is also a very good (if a bit cheap) spell to guard against casters.

As for Silence, the best counter is to just have mooks with ranged weapons to support the casters. One trick might also be to have one or more of the monsters actually pick up the casters and physically hurl them out of the zone. This especially works with brutes like Minotaurs and Earth Elementals, who would have more than enough strength to toss a puny human.

EDIT: Also, yes, you're definitely within your rights to say the cultists can start scrying on the party or using divination magic to discover their common strategies. Spellcasting monsters would be dumb not to do this if they have the means. Not to mention that, IIRC each cult has ample opportunity to hear about the adventurers foiling their plans, and make preparations to deal with them.

Nice!
Thanks for your reply.
I definitely like the 'use dead comrades as stepping stones' option!!

I might even let them find a note along the lines of "General Alert - the adventuring band causing such havoc is known to contain a druid who creates vicious spikes. Target this individual with extreme prejudice!"

I am firmly against changing anything based on what the players are doing.

Let them make decisions that impact the game.

I haven't played PotA but I'm surprised that the encounters are so straightforward. Creatures are always bunched up like that? And only have melee attacks?

How many players are there? Adventures are written with a balance point of 4 PCs.

The pacing in all of the other adventures I've played have been 6-8 encounters per long rest. If they try to take more then they either fail the objective or monsters will come interrupt it anyway. Or both. Are you playing differently?

Are creatures attacking the lower AC characters whenever they can (which is most of the time in 5e)? Spike Growth is Concentration and Druids don't have high AC.

Also, why can't enemy spellcasters just walk out of the Silence?

PotA is definitely designed around the idea of the cults learning about the adventurers. After all, they'll eventually launch directed attacks against them. If they do that it's reasonable they also learn their weaknesses.

I mean there are also often opportunities to have one cultist run away from combat. Also when my players interogate someone and that person cooperates, they usually leave him/her alive (because not evil-aligned). So there are also ways to kind of prepare for the cultists learning about something through that.

Spike Growth is surprisingly effective early in PotA. My completely underleveled group managed to defeat the Umber Hulk because of it. It wasn't a problem for me because without it, it would just have been TPK and that's definitely less fun than players winning due to good strategy.

I personally wouldn't add things not in the campaign to counter it, but I'd definitely make NPCs act smarter. Like moving out of it the shortest way possible and using dash to move next to the caster instead of attacking so you can either attack next turn or get an opportunity attack, etc.

Just make sure that you're playing out both the advantages and disadvantages of these area-effect spells. Both can be as much a hindrance to the PCs as their opponents. With Silence, in particular, any PC within the area of effect will be hindered in their attempts to communicate effectively with the rest of the party.

ad_hoc said:

I haven't played PotA but I'm surprised that the encounters are so straightforward. Creatures are always bunched up like that? And only have melee attacks?

Click to expand...

It actually has a high variety in encounters. It depends a bit against which element you're going. Earth cultists are slow, lazy, prefer melee and have tons of "big dumb monster" minions, so spike growth is pretty good against them. Wind cultists are fast and often have ways to fly, so dpike growth doesn't help much. Fire cultists are fast and aggressive and will get some of your HP with their suicidal attacks no matter what you do. Water cultists often have good ranged attacks, but spike growth is still really good in narrow spaces / small rooms. But good luck using spike growth in water combat.
[MENTION=6896493]Nailen[/MENTION]
I'm curious. Can you give an encounter list where you had trouble finding ways to counter spike growth?

Don't know anything about PotA so sorry for anything that doesn't work here. If your group has been fighting different cells from the same cult than most certainly the cultist should be learning the player's tactics. And depending upon how famous your players are, any up and coming cult/villain is going to hear about these heroes and should do at least a cursorily investigation to see if they'll be a problem. Remember that fame in only required in the area the cult wants to set up shop, so being the heroes of a tiny village is all that is required.

Personally, when I think of cults, at least during gatherings, everyone is dressed the same. Sometimes the wealthier and/or higher ranked members wear a nicer set with the possibility of an extra insignia to designate their elevated status. When in their garb, equip your casters a weapon they are proficient and the non-casters with pouches... that could be used to hold spell components. When they're not "showing their colors" a person can wear whatever they please. Use both the more homogenized outfit and the varying taste in clothing to help confuse the monk. Also, if the cultist receive a warning of the party imminent arrival (such as from an Alarm spell) some can use Disguise Self to change their appearance instead of Invisibility. Last but not least, throw some gish opponents at them; robes can do an excellent job of hiding chain mail underneath them.

Having a caster prepare Counterspell or Dispel Magic for Spike Growth is probably one of the simplest counters to the druid. Another simple solution is to give your mooks a short bow and 10 arrows. Have them shoot at anyone not engaging in melee. In addition the mooks should be shouting a warning to anyone who didn't see the spell take affect. That should give them advantage to Perception to see it, since this is a known thing your players do. Then there is the poetic justice of casting silence the druid before s/he get their spell off. Players don't have any right to complain when the cultist are stealing a tactic that has worked so effectively against themselves. You can make use elevation and barriers to help thwart Spike Growth as well. Balconies, ledges more than 15ft up or just plain flies shouldn't have to worry about the spell.

Use Spike Growth against your players. Find ways to push or pull your players onto the effect area. The movement will trigger the spell and there is no safe for ally clause. Now your druid needs to decide whether keeping it up is worth the risk to their companion. If you really feel like putting the screws to your players, have another caster drop Grease, Evard's Black Tentacles or the like on top of the Spike Growth.

Consider where your mooks are and what they would be doing as your players burst into the room. Sometimes they'll be in one big cluster. Others in small groups or spread thought the room. And maybe there are guests in the room. Whether or not these guests know they are hostages is immaterial. Hell, you could steal from "The Dark Knight" and have the guests in cultist garb with the cultist are in their civilian garb. Wouldn't that cause problems for your players if they intentionally (but unknowingly) harmed/killed a non-cultist; can hear a cultist telling the crowed at the best tavern in town saying, "I witnessed those villainous thugs indiscriminately murdered our guests to achieve their warped sense of justice."

The obvious countertactic is a volley of ranged attacks at the druid, forcing a series of concentration saves. (This does require a certain level of intelligence from the enemy, but not genius-level; disrupting concentration is Anti-Caster Tactics 101.) Even if all the enemy can do is throw rocks, any hit that does at least 1 point of damage is enough to force a save. The more saves the druid has to make, the more likely one of them is to come up 1.

The same trick works on the monk, but once spike growth is shut down, it's probably easier just to walk out of the silence area.

All that said, it's okay if the PCs can occasionally shut down an encounter. Let them have a "win button" victory now and then. Just not every encounter.

Thanks for all the replies everyone.
Just to be clear, they don't *always* use Spike Growth and Silence. The party is 5 PCs between 4 players (we were hoping a 5th would return to the group, but fatherhood won't let him go just yet!) - fighter, monk, ranger, thief/illusionist and druid/barbarian.
The encounter last session was in the market hall area in the Water cult temple. There is a fathomer overseeing three cultists as they sort through sacks, boxes etc of loot that have come in from Joliiver's river pirates. Anyone remember?
To make it semi-realistic, the cultists were loosely grouped along one wall with the Fathomer behind them. In this instance Silence was cast at the gong to prevent them ringing it. The cultists, as described in MM, don't have a thrown weapon.
I guess in part, I sometimes plan how I think the encounter will play out and then forget it in the heat of battle!

To answer the question of why the spellcaster doesn't walk out of the area of silence - they often do, but the PCs have high DEX so often come in high on the initiative order and so the spellcaster can easily have taken multiple arrows/other damage before they even get a chance to move.

I don't want to 'add' anything - I'm not even sure that any of the cultist casters have Counterspell or Dispel Magic, but I think the cults will start to change their tactics - shouting alerts "It's the spikes", and using any kind of ranged attack, and the players may find that there are more escapers to alert the rest of the complex.