D&D 5E What direction should 5th edition take?

If this is true, then this should be easy for you to prove.

Where can I find...

...an Area power in the Fighter list?

...a power that deals energy damage of some type (fire, acid, cold, lightning, thunder, radiant, necrotic, psychic, poison) on the Fighter list?

...a Fighter power that teleports the fighter or a target?

...a Fighter power that dominates a target?

...a Fighter power that creates a zone or conjuration?

...a Fighter power that heals another target?

...a Fighter power which grants or takes advantage of concealment?

The problem isn't that fighters cannot conjure, teleport, etc. It is that fighters powers and wizards powers use largely the same mechanics to accomplish their effects. A fighter cannot create an illusion, but most illusions push, daze, slide their enemies, and fighters do this too. Many fighters stances work like zones even though they are not zones. Many fighter powers are close burst, which is similar to area. Most fighters I have seen can achieve elemental damage by way of an item or feat. We also stated earlier that while fighter powers do not grant, for example, concealment, they do effectively the same thing by granting allies cover, marking enemies, or giving enemies penalties to hit.


You mean "Allow wizards to fly almost immediately," since wizards can fly, they just have to wait.



All 4e Defenses increase with level advancement.



Yes, they do.

All defenses increase by level, but only 2 of them are increased significantly by stat gains as you level. In all likelihood your lowest defense will be around 2 points farther behind your other defenses at level 30 than it was at level 1.
 

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I am going to take this to mean ... all character types should have more options so those who like more have it ... and others can easily cull back to a set they are comfortable with.

Does this seem reasonable to you?


And for me, it is not the number of options at any point in time. I really have no problem with that. I'm 6th level, I have 8 options during a given round of combat.

It's the overall restrictions on the use and acquisition of those options. I really feel handcuffed as a player.

Want to cast Fly on the Fighter as a Wizard? Sorry, you cannot do that. But an Invoker can do it at level 22.

Want to cast Fly as a Wizard more than once per day?

Want to cast Fly at the same time you cast Stoneskin? Sorry, you cannot do that until much higher level and you have to restrict your choice of spells in some other way to do this.

Want to fly and be a Warlock? Yes, you can do this for an entire round at level 16 with your highest level power. Woo Hoo! More than a round at level 22. Let me get this straight. I'm a level 21 Demigod Warlock, but I cannot find a way to cross country fly?

Want to Fly and be a Sorcerer? Well, you cannot fly for long, but you can fly on average more than half of the rounds for short distances and there are many many fly options for you.

And how come a Sorcerer can fly at level 2 and allow an ally to fly at level 2 whereas most other Arcane classes have to wait until level 16? How is that balanced?

If you are a Scion of Arkhosia, you can effectively hop.


I consider this inferior design. Flight is part and parcel of every FRPG out there except 4E DND.

Player: "Let's fly to avoid the combat."
DM: "Sorry, the rules do not allow that."


I really don't get it. A first level Eladrin can often Teleport out of melee range, so it shouldn't be a "the PC is out of range of melee attacks" issue. I don't understand the rationale behind the nerfs in this case.


So yes, unnerfing some 4E spells would be great. They threw the baby out with the bath water.
 

And how come a Sorcerer can fly at level 2 and allow an ally to fly at level 2 whereas most other Arcane classes have to wait until level 16? How is that balanced?

For one thing, Sorcerer is a striker, and strikers are more about mobility than other classes. The Warlock (other Arcane striker) gets teleports more than other classes, while Sorcerer relies more on flight that ends quickly.

Sorcerous Sirocco - Level 2 - Fly for one explicit move action, must land at the end movement or fall.

Fly - Level 16 - Fly until the end of the encounter.

Can you not perceive the difference in power between a single move action with severe limitations and a continuous ability to fly, and thus remain out of the reach of particular attacks without severely impairing your own ability to perform?

I'm a level 21 Demigod Warlock, but I cannot find a way to cross country fly?

Overland Flight, level 20 ritual, Dragon 366 (August 2008).

There has been a method for over a year.

A first level Eladrin can often Teleport out of melee range, so it shouldn't be a "the PC is out of range of melee attacks" issue.

There's a big difference between moving once to avoid melee attacks and being able to remain out of range of melee attacks for the duration of the encounter.
 

Also, there's a level 9 mount (hippogriff, ebony fly). Or a really lucky level 6 phantom steed ritual.

I don't recall methods of flight being all that low level or easy in Warhammer FRP, Earthdawn (unless you're a windling, a specific race), MERP... and judging from literature, casual flight is actually quite atypical in the 'I toss a spell on him sense'.

The ability to bypass encounters, or indeed an entire adventure*, should not be one casually obtained.

* Damn, can't find a link to the KODT comic where they fly a giant eagle to mount doom and drop the ring in.
 

So, if you ignore all the actual details of the mechanics, and only pay attention to broad strokes, like a standardized system for conditions, damage, and attacks, then they're all the same.

Not exactly the same, but similar.

The Fighter pushed the foe with a melee attack and did damage.

The Wizard pushed the foe with an illusion and did damage.

Is the flavor important here? Not very. They really feel similar. The outcome in the combat is identical.


Are there things that the Fighter can do that the Wizard cannot and vice versa? Absolutely.

Are there a lot of things that the Fighter can do that the Wizard cannot? Err, not so much. He can mark a foe to protect a little and do better Opportunity Attacks, but beyond that, there are few things a Fighter can do that a Wizard cannot.

Want a high AC? Wizard can do that.
Want a high chance to hit? Wizard can do that.
Want to push foes around? Wizard can do that.
Want to heal yourself? Fighter (Comeback Strike, Boundless Endurance, Victorious Surge, etc., etc., etc.) can do that. It's more difficult for a Wizard to do this, but he can still Multiclass and/or take certain Paragon Paths to do so. But there are no Wizard powers that allow it.

Want to do damage or some effect with a melee attack? Sure, the Wizard has a tough time with this. But, he can usually do the damage and many of the effects with a spell.
 

Want a high AC? Wizard can do that.
Want a high chance to hit? Wizard can do that.
Want to push foes around? Wizard can do that.
Want to heal yourself? Fighter (Comeback Strike, Boundless Endurance, Victorious Surge, etc., etc., etc.) can do that. It's more difficult for a Wizard to do this, but he can still Multiclass and/or take certain Paragon Paths to do so. But there are no Wizard powers that allow it.

Want to do damage or some effect with a melee attack? Sure, the Wizard has a tough time with this. But, he can usually do the damage and many of the effects with a spell.

Yeah, it's not like pre 4e magic could literally do anything and everything...oh wait.....Sorry couldn't resist:)

As for Flight AND magic in general, I think the difference is that in 4e, they actually thought through the effects of having powerful and cheap magic.

Remember, pre 3e, magic wasn't nearly as powerful thanks to rarity (no cheap magic items to get around the sot limitation meant even a 20th level mage only had 4 3rd level slots- Definitely NOT casting Fly wily nily on his party)

I personally think the 3e magic system wasn't designed well AT ALL. It basically took every single limitation from 1e/2e, threw it in the dustbin and left the power behind it.

Remember pre 3e how dangerous Flight was? Remember how HARD it was to even get the spell in the 1st place?

I kind of LIKE that the 4e designers said "ok, if we make flight cheap and powerful, what are the effects on the game"

It's nice to think that 3e has the same magic system as 1e/2e, but in practise, they are entirely different beasts.
 

I don't recall methods of flight being all that low level or easy in Warhammer FRP, Earthdawn (unless you're a windling, a specific race), MERP... and judging from literature, casual flight is actually quite atypical in the 'I toss a spell on him sense'.

I didn't play those games (except for MERP), but Fly is level 5 in MERP and Rolemaster, lasts 1 minute per level and can be cast on others. It exists in HARP, GURPS, Fantasy Hero (right away), and probably most other games systems.

It's an FRPG staple.

But 4E balance dictates that the player of the Rogue will not have fun with his Climb (i.e Athletics) skill because the Wizard can Fly.

Sorcerous Sirocco - Level 2 - Fly for one explicit move action, must land at the end movement or fall.

Fly - Level 16 - Fly until the end of the encounter.

Can you not perceive the difference in power between a single move action with severe limitations and a continuous ability to fly, and thus remain out of the reach of particular attacks without severely impairing your own ability to perform?

Can you not perceive the difference in power and utility over the lifetime of the PC?

Sorcerous Sirocco, usable on another.

Flying for a round during every encounter (4+ rounds of flight per day) and allowing an ally to do the same for 14 levels (8+ rounds of total PC flight per day) vastly outweighs flying for an entire encounter once per day once you get to level 16 and not before.

Heads and shoulders better. Need to get over a pit with the Bard in tow, no problem. Want to fly up to the catwalk where you are safe, no problem.

Even Energetic Flight, fly 2 rounds at 6th level, for 10 levels of 2 round flight once per day where the Wizard cannot fly outweighs getting a once per day Fly for an entire encounter, especially since Fly will often not be cast in round one. It will more often be cast when the Wizard is in trouble which tends to be later in encounters.

And at 16th+ levels, more foes percentage-wise have ranged, reach, aura, and area attacks which might reach a flying Wizard. Stun the Wizard, the Wizard can no longer fly. Daze the Wizard, the Wizard has to choose between flying and casting other spells. Neither Sorcerous Sirocco nor Energetic Flight cannot be dispelled this way.

The Sorcerer wins hands down.

There's a big difference between moving once to avoid melee attacks and being able to remain out of range of melee attacks for the duration of the encounter.

Last I saw, it was situational with both.

In a 10 foot tall room, the Flying PC is still in melee range.

In a room with catwalks or bookcases or high hanging objects, the Teleporting PC can get out of melee range for the entire encounter (which has often happened in our games now that 4E terrain is more 3 dimensional then earlier versions typically were).

There are no guarantees in either case, but one can be done at level one once per encounter and the other can be done at level 16 once per day.

Get out of melee range often for many encounters for 15 levels vs. get out of melee range for most of an encounter at the level where most foes have ranged attacks. No comparison.
 

Does this seem reasonable to you?

I want more options for everyone.. hell yeah.

So yes, unnerfing some 4E spells would be great. They threw the baby out with the bath water.

I think they were over cautious in some regards... and overly restrictive of reusing abilities.. I would like more abilities... more situationally useful ones. More at-will ones... and more support for the idea of enhancing powers based on how they mesh with the current environment. (yes the DM can use the DM's best friend or more and we certainly do at my house but.).

I now find myself

Conjuring fictional sources where combat flight was used by heros
Harry Potter comes to mind - and even better there were witches in the Golden Compass who I would end up building as bards (arcane - prophecy and bow connections). Both examples that leap to mind are indeed not necessarily high level but do possibly tie the ability to a magic item very similar to a mount... other sources I recall involve turning in to a bird with somewhat limited combat abilities.

So lets see the lowest level mount I see with flying is a level 4 Warwing Drake... 8 flying speed and overland flight 12. (no hovering)
And make a set of magic items ranging from level 4 magic item called a basic Witchbroom which allows you to zoom about. (you need Broom Mastery or similar feat to access deeper abilities of the broom)

Now create a ritual for your world and call it. Ride of the witches ... and it creates flying ointment that requires the user to disrobe and spend several minutes ritualistically rubbing in the ointment.... the ointment wears off very quickly if you put on clothes of course. Decide on a level etc .... and although there is precidence for making it high level... make it lower if you like ;-)
 
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