D&D 5E Should the next edition of D&D promote more equality?

[Mike Eagling]

As was mentioned, the cover of the 4e DMG was a bit off putting perhaps. And the 4e PHB image might be arguable.

My personal criticism of these two covers relates to the highly awkward poses of the female characters rather than their lack of attire. Perhaps ironically, given the content of this thread, my first reaction is "why is she falling over?" rather than "hubba! hubba!"

I can't comment on the rest of DnD4e but Pathfinder has a good mix and balance of sexes and ethnicities--although I am white, male and hetero so it's possible I'm not as sensitive towards the subject as others?

 

[Obryn]

I can't comment on the rest of DnD4e but Pathfinder has a good mix and balance of sexes and ethnicities--although I am white, male and hetero so it's possible I'm not as sensitive towards the subject as others?

For all the strides they take towards being inclusive, Paizo has been terrible about cheesecake art.

-O

 

[Nellisir]

I did a quick search, and here are some WotC images that I think are actually good. These are all from the blog My Girlfriend is A DM (http://mygirlfriendisadm.wordpress.com/)

Ralph Horsley:
Female dwarf. No belly button, no cleavage, pretty badass. http://mygirlfriendisadm.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/10-horsley01-dr392.jpg?w=1000&h=
Adventuring party. The tiefling has some cleavage, but it's not excessive. Otherwise everything is good. http://mygirlfriendisadm.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/10-horsley21-phb.jpg?w=1000&h=
Same party. http://mygirlfriendisadm.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/10-horsley20-dmg.jpg?w=1000&h=
Same party, in town. Note the female NPC front and center. Well dressed, not sexed up. It is possible! Interestingly, the tiefling has a higher neckline here, and it looks totally appropriate. Also, I love this picture and all the townspeople trying to sell the adventurers their gear -candles, lanterns, magic pots, cupcakes (?), a snake, and the creepy guy behind the halfling. http://mygirlfriendisadm.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/10-horsley19-fallcrest.jpg?w=1000&h=
I can't tell what sex this character is, and that's totally cool. http://mygirlfriendisadm.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/10-horsley17-remorhaz.jpg?w=1000&h=
Best of the bunch, IMO. Female character, total action, neutral attire. http://mygirlfriendisadm.wordpress....f-4th-edition-ralph-horsley/#jp-carousel-2310

Eva Widderman:
Drow...priestess? Got curves, no belly button, no decolletage. http://mygirlfriendisadm.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/evawidermann15.jpg?w=700&h=
Druid? Same notes as above http://mygirlfriendisadm.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/evawidermann07.jpg?w=1200&h=

Some pictures, I think, are more like imaginary self-portraits (of the character, not the artist) than photographs. This one has cleavage, a weird pose, and either a wind tunnel or strange gravitational effects, but it's still cool. This is how the character imagines herself, a fiery storm of vengeance or somesuch. That's not a come-hither look. http://mygirlfriendisadm.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/evawidermann11.jpg?w=700&h=

 

[Nymrohd]

I just have to say that considering how sexuality is evolving in the western world, I expect that what we are going to see in the near future is not so much "less cheesecake females" as "more cheesecake men".

 

[mythago]

To be honest, I don't really respond to posts that I don't find interesting to respond to. Why should I?

You might want to give the impression that your argument is well-thought-out, and that it's strong enough to stand up to disagreement. When you flat-out ignore anything that contradicts your opinions and go on long rants addressing things nobody has actually said, then....well, you know that scene in the V for Vendetta movie where Prothero is gazing at himself in the mirror and happily shouting along with the recording of his show earlier that day? Kind of like that.

The point about your double standard on sexy men, by the way, is not a "touche"; it's an observation that your argument is not what you claim it to be. You passionately stand up for principles like free speech, artistic integrity, anti-censorship, celebration of the human form, realism in depiction of certain characters, recognition of sexuality, etc. only when it comes to sexualized depictions of females, but mumble a footnoted "where appropriate" when asked to apply those same principles to sexualized depictions of males....well, that rather strongly suggests that those are not so much principles as excuses.

If I argue passionately for the right of free speech for people I agree with, and reluctantly mutter "I guess so" when asked if I support those same free-speech rights for people I disagree with, then I don't actually support free speech; what I really support is the right of people I agree with to say what they please. Similarly, when you champion the principles of biology, art, human nature, whatever when it comes to drawings of Loviatar, but ignore or brush aside questions about why there aren't more, shall we say, historically faithful pictures of satyrs or incubi in gaming art, then it's patently obvious you're not really the Champion of Artistic Freedom. You just want your jubbly pics.

 

[Nellisir]

You just want your jubbly pics.

When you say it like that, I want my jubbly pics too.

 

[mythago]

Nellisir, in a world with a just and loving God, the machines used to make those would be called "jubbly engines".

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

That's not a come-hither look. http://mygirlfriendisadm.files.wordp...1.jpg?w=700&h=

Someone is a fan of Marvel Comic's Pheonix...

 

[TanithT]

My girlfriend 5 years ago loved the raw sexuality of my Conan barbarian character.

Wow. I didn't know Manti Te'o played D&D!

It's misandrist in the extreme to ignore one of the prime motivators of the human male in fantasy tropes (save the beautiful princess), if we're talking about being inclusionary. I'm not at all advocating "cheeseball" art or chainmail bikinis, I just think the fair maiden up in the tower shouldn't be covered up in a burka.

If you and your girlfriend want to play Strong Barbarian and Helpless Princess, or Fifty Shades of Puce, or whatever else livens up your love life, you rock on with your bad self. Nobody will mind.* Consenting adults can do that stuff. What isn't cool is forcing everyone to play in your sexual power fantasy scenarios. Not everyone consents to have their characters handicapped and depicted as helpless, or as too stupid to wear effective adventuring gear, just to feed your fantasies. And if you find someone who consents to be your "sexual plaything", that's great. Have fun and don't forget your safeword. But you don't get to demand that every female depicted in the game must be that way just because it pleases you.

It's not misandrist to say that you are not allowed to cripple everyone's female characters so you can play your sexual power games. Those kinds of games are for consenting adults, not for the core rules of a game played by people of all ages and genders and orientations. If people want to use adult gender based power themes in their own home games that basically cripple one gender and depict them as subordinate or helpless or as purely sexual rather than as normal players or adventurers, they can have that kind of campaign. It's not anyone else's business to say they can not. But this is not something that should be a core rules default setting, because it is an orientation choice that should be left up to individual adults to decide.

Do you seriously think it is anti-gay for the core D&D rulebook not to homoeroticize every male in the artwork and not to have scenarios for gay men who want to have various kinds of sex and romance with other men? Or would you say that this is the kind of thing that should be left to a home campaign if a particular group of adults wants to play that way? If not, then claiming that it is 'misandrist' not to hardcode romantic scenarios for the male dominant/female submissive heterosexual crowd is fairly silly.




* Unless you accidentally poke her with your sword and she explodes and flies out the window. Then your neighbors may object.

 

[mythago]

The idea that catering to gay men is misandrist is unintentionally hilarious.

I know that this thread is not just about gender, and I'll reiterate that the main problem with a lot of game art (and gaming in general) is that it's a failure of imagination. Ever read a less-than-top-flight Golden Age science fiction book, where the people of the Future!!!! all sound exactly like they stepped out of a small town in 1950s Ohio? It demolishes the fourth wall; we're not reading about the actual Future, but a painfully obvious 1950s version of what the Future might be like. Or a new fantasy novel where all the elves are lighthearted forest dwellers and dwarves are gruff and greedy: you can't help but think geez, Been There Done That, can't the writer think of anything better?