D&D 5E Should the next edition of D&D promote more equality?

[TanithT]

The idea that catering to gay men is misandrist is unintentionally hilarious.

That would be funny, but I was comparing the notion that not catering to heterosexual male dominant romantic power fantasies with helpless female game objects is misandrist to the notion that not catering to gay romantic power fantasies with gay leather bar scenarios in the core D&D books is anti-gay. It's the same amount of silly either way.

If individual players want those things in their campaigns, there is no reason they can not have them. But that is a choice that individual adults should get to make for themselves.

 

[Nymrohd]

That would be funny, but I was comparing the notion that not catering to heterosexual male dominant romantic power fantasies with helpless female game objects is misandrist to the notion that not catering to gay romantic power fantasies with gay leather bar scenarios in the core D&D books is anti-gay. It's the same amount of silly either way.

If individual players want those things in their campaigns, there is no reason they can not have them. But that is a choice that individual adults should get to make for themselves.

Well we did get the 3.5 iconic sorcerer who was a leather-obsessed twink . . .
You could argue that if the game does choose to depict sexuality in world building context, there needs to be some representation of all sexuality. And if you are going for quality world-building then the sexuality of at least non-humans should be reconsidered from zero (to account for differences in culture, fertility and longevity at the very least).

This is of interest since world building should guide art depicting the world (though considering how often the picture and the description of a monster doesn't match in gaming books, I don't have high hopes for campaign settings).

 

[TanithT]

Well we did get the 3.5 iconic sorcerer who was a leather-obsessed twink . . .

It's certainly a solid step in the direction of both genders being equally silly in their attire. I do hope those are Shiny Leather Buckles of Arrow Protection +3. Or that he's going to a fetish club and not a fight. You can not move or dodge very well in what amounts to bondage gear.

You could argue that if the game does choose to depict sexuality in world building context, there needs to be some representation of all sexuality. And if you are going for quality world-building then the sexuality of at least non-humans should be reconsidered from zero (to account for differences in culture, fertility and longevity at the very least).

I would tend to agree. How explicit you want that depiction to be should be something players could choose, from "I want to buy this game for my kids" level to "I am a consenting adult and I want nudity and sexuality in my adult gaming supplements".

Drawing a realistic picture of an alien culture, especially if it is nonhuman, requires some hard thinking about the basics of their sexuality, reproduction mechanics, customs and morals. Defaulting to faux-medieval-Europe-human is creatively bankrupt worldbuilding. The entire point of alien cultures and nonhuman cultures is that they are alien or nonhuman, and making them all look the same as us seriously misses the point.

 

[Nymrohd]

It's certainly a solid step in the direction of both genders being equally silly in their attire. I do hope those are Shiny Leather Buckles of Arrow Protection +3. Or that he's going to a fetish club and not a fight. You can not move or dodge very well in what amounts to bondage gear.




I would tend to agree. How explicit you want that depiction to be should be something players could choose, from "I want to buy this game for my kids" level to "I am a consenting adult and I want nudity and sexuality in my adult gaming supplements".

Drawing a realistic picture of an alien culture, especially if it is nonhuman, requires some hard thinking about the basics of their sexuality, reproduction mechanics, customs and morals. Defaulting to faux-medieval-Europe-human is creatively bankrupt worldbuilding. The entire point of alien cultures and nonhuman cultures is that they are alien or nonhuman, and making them all look the same as us seriously misses the point.

E.g. I love the Wheel of Time. I know there are tons of valid complaints but I love that series. In the books by Robert Jordan there are no visible male homosexuals. Lesbians are all over the place. In the last book we get a gay character. It is not a big deal nor is it made a big deal; it is just relevant information at the point and added in a way that does not feel tokenist.
Let us for instance consider drow culture. Lesbian sex is all over the place. Yet gay sex and indeed gay companions are largely absent, even though the society itself would favor such relations (probably closeted but still as a significant minority). If you ever decided to depict the scene from the first Liriel Baenre book where all the drow are clubbing (sweaty cave dancing to percussion music), you should have some homosexual couples in the mix. That's what I am suggesting (also more depictions of every day life please! but that is another issue altogether).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Drawing a realistic picture of an alien culture, especially if it is nonhuman, requires some hard thinking about the basics of their sexuality, reproduction mechanics, customs and morals. Defaulting to faux-medieval-Europe-human is creatively bankrupt worldbuilding. The entire point of alien cultures and nonhuman cultures is that they are alien or nonhuman, and making them all look the same as us seriously misses the point.

But you also have to know your audience. I have drafted all kinds of different takes on nonhuman races for fantasy campaigns. They were not well-beloved by people who wanted traditional D&D racial tropes. Result: most of my best stuff remains unused by me, except for that I have posted them on this site for others to use.

 

[TanithT]

Let us for instance consider drow culture. Lesbian sex is all over the place. Yet gay sex and indeed gay companions are largely absent, even though the society itself would favor such relations (probably closeted but still as a significant minority).

Drow social structure would tend to encourage homosexuality in both genders, and there is certainly nothing in their hedonistic mindset that should discourage it. You can thank hypocritical homophobia, the kind that says lipstick lesbians are great to look at but gay men are just wrong to show, for the extreme disparity in how often each are depicted. The first unrealistically and exploitatively, the second not at all.

If you ever decided to depict the scene from the first Liriel Baenre book where all the drow are clubbing (sweaty cave dancing to percussion music), you should have some homosexual couples in the mix. That's what I am suggesting (also more depictions of every day life please! but that is another issue altogether).

Agreed, and it wouldn't necessarily have to be explicit.

Actually, depictions of everyday life in various cultures would be a great way to incorporate non ridiculous nudity and sexuality for the adults who do want that in their gaming supplements. What is suicidally stupid to wear on the battlefield or in a dungeon is perfectly sensible for a cocktail party, or while bathing, or in the bedroom.

 

[Umbran]

Wow. I didn't know Manti Te'o played D&D!

Don't make it personal. Don't be insulting.

Don't, for a minute, think that just because most of us disagree with Gorgoroth that you may insult him personally. Just because you put a smilie on it, doesn't make it okay.

Understood? Good. Not understood? Take it to e-mail or PM with one of the moderators.

Thank you, all.

 

[Dausuul]

Your thesis that sexuality is off-limits in order to bring in more women is kind of self-defeating, considering plethysmographic studies show they are turned on by vastly more visual stimuli than we are (hence, contradicting the bias in many other people's posts here...but hey, let's not let reality intrude in a talk about D&D art, right?), we shall have to have no art at all.

This is irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[MrHemlocks]

Why do women want to be equal with men? Why do men want women to be considered equal to women? Society is all messed up and now our games need to reflect this? If I was a woman I sure as heck would not want to be the same as a male... Wonder why God, gods, alien overlords or whatever destroyed mankind in the past just to start over...?

 

[Umbran]

Drawing a realistic picture of an alien culture, especially if it is nonhuman, requires some hard thinking about the basics of their sexuality, reproduction mechanics, customs and morals.

And, let's face it, most game writers (most writers, in general) don't have the sociology/anthropology or biology know-how to do it properly. Nor do they have the page-count to address the subject in any depth. So, if alien culture sexuality comes up, we get Pon Farr, and Klingon women throwing things while the men read poetry.

Reading this thread demonstrates how little agreement and understanding we humans have on our own sexuality. You want authors to do a credible job on alien cultures?