D&D 5E Warlocks and high level play

[Sword of Spirit]

The warlock is never going to be a top tier class on its own. There are fun things to play, you've got lots options, but its always going to have issues keeping up in damage, and there are still a lot of trap spell options. This doesn't change at high level.

(Now, I'm going to assume you are not comparing warlock's at-will damage to fighter or barbarian, intentionally the best of the best. Since his at-will damage is as good or better than everyone else, I'm guessing you are referring to his damage compared to a wizard or sorcerer.)

With that said--I'm not seeing it.

I ran some numbers. I compared the damage over an adventuring day of a warlock with a sorcerer and wizard at 11th level. Based on 6-8 encounters per day, and about 3 rounds (or less) per encounter, I assumed 18 rounds worth of battle. I didn't take into account any feats, any damage over time spells, any hindering effects, etc. Since the question is about a warlock's damage, I went purely for blasting spells (and a hex for the warlock).

I ran both damage dealing optimized (fiendish warlock, draconic bloodline (fire), evoker) and any old versions of each class. I ran calculations for including extra damage on area of effects according to DMG estimations of how many targets an area effect spell would hit, and I ran calculations if we assume blasting a single target only. I assumed that attack rolls hit 50% of the time (and therefore halved average damage on attack spells) and assumed saving throws were made half of the time (for 75% damage on save spells). I attempted to make optimal choices amongst blasting spells, including casting lower level spells in higher level spell slots if it was advantageous for that specific calculation, focusing on spells that would benefit from class features, and using Arcane Recovery and Sorcery Points to create the best possible spell slots. (One thing I did not do is mess around with Twinned Spell. It is possible that could have made a difference for the sorcerer in the single target calculations). I rounded down all fractions.

Here are my results for damage over an adventuring day for 11th level blasters.

With area effect damage included:
Wizard (Evoker) 1621
Sorcerer (Draconic) 1435
Wizard 1314
Sorcerer 1308
Warlock (Fiend Pact) 1281
Warlock 469

Single target damage only:
Wizard (Evoker) 751
Warlock (Fiend Pact) 458
Warlock 450
Sorcerer (Draconic) 370
Wizard 343
Sorcerer 333

So what we can see is that the evoker wins against anyone, anytime--provided he uses all 18 of his spell slots (including Arcane Recovery) just doing damage. (It worked out so that the sorcerer and wizard exactly used up their spell slots and never had to fall back on their inferior cantrips).

The draconic (fire) sorcerer beats the standard wizard, provided he uses all of his spell slots and Sorcery Points for blasting.

The warlock comes in dead last when it comes to area effect damage. However, note that in the case of the Fiend Pact warlock his damage isn't that far off from the sorcerer. The difference is probably insignificant.

When it comes to single target damage, we see something quite different. The evoker is at the top, but only because magic missile works weirdly (he adds his Intelligence modifier to each missile), making it crazy good for an evoker. If it were only added once, the damage would be more like 415--placing it above the sorcerer but below the warlock (regardless of pact--which makes little difference for single target damage).

Without the evoker shenanigans, the warlock is the clear leader on single target damage. That's where he shines in the damage department. His at-will attacks make up for his lack of spell slots: over half of his attacks were actually with his eldritch blast.

And that's just damage. After using up their spell slots, wizard and sorcerer have very few resources left except cantrips (and rituals for the Wizard) while the Warlock has plenty of cool invocations to let him mimic spell effects and gain unique non-combat abilities all day long (as well as having cantrips, and even better access to rituals with the right Pact Boon).

Warlock is not weak. It is different, but it definitely seems to work as intended: excelling in single target damage, while boasting a suite of mostly at-will abilities for a wide variety of situations.

(And anyone who cares more about balance than I do might want to reject the official ruling on magic missile to keep the evoker from leaving all other casters behind in damage.)

 

[Mephista]

You are comparing level 11 characters, but I was actually looking at level 12 and above when I was talking, given the OP.

Really, though, there are a lot of problems here. The warlock needs those slots to do things like teleport and misty step on occasion as well, not just damage, nor focus on using Hex all the time (which, as Concentration effect, wears off).

That's why I said that its an issue - its possible, but you need to be good at understanding the system, or have good items to back you up.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

You are comparing level 11 characters, but I was actually looking at level 12 and above when I was talking, given the OP.

Really, though, there are a lot of problems here. The warlock needs those slots to do things like teleport and misty step on occasion as well, not just damage, nor focus on using Hex all the time (which, as Concentration effect, wears off).

That's why I said that its an issue - its possible, but you need to be good at understanding the system, or have good items to back you up.

Fair enough. I considered doing multiple levels, but that was more work than I felt like doing just out of curiosity. At these levels hex lasts all day. Concentration can be broken, but there are lots of other variables that can also come into play for anyone, so I didn't bother to attempt to somehow factor that in. As far as needing the slots for other things, so do the wizard and sorcerer, so I'm not seeing how that has an effect. From my calculations, you actually need a better knowledge of the system to maximize damage potential as a wizard or sorcerer than an a warlock. You have to determine when to cast a higher level spell, vs using a lower level spell in that slot, you have to decide from a variety of spells, etc. The warlock just casts hex then all fireballs with his slots, and circle of death is the only option for his 6th level spell. After that, eldritch blast away.

I suppose I could run another calculation at a higher level. We'll see if I get to it.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

So I did go ahead and run numbers at 16th and 17th levels. First though, I corrected some errors in the original numbers (all but one of them minor).

Here is the revised comparison (Evoker is italicized to highlight that the magic missile imbalance is where their power comes from):

11th Level Area
Wizard (Evoker) 1608
Sorcerer (Draconic (Fire)) 1420
Sorcerer 1300
Wizard 1294
Warlock (Fiend Pact) 1281
Warlock 681

11th Level Single Target
Wizard (Evoker) 751
Warlock (Fiend Pact) 458
Warlock 450
Sorcerer (Draconic (Fire)) 377
Wizard 343
Sorcerer 342

Sorcerer is doing better according to my revised calculations, which is nice. Note that the non-fiend warlock's area damage, while still low, jumped by over 200 points once I corrected my error.

Moving on to the higher levels to see if the relative positions change.

16th Level Area
Wizard (Evoker) 2011
Sorcerer (Draconic (Fire)) 1841
Wizard 1772
Sorcerer 1766
Warlock (Fiend Pact) 1281
Warlock 681

16th Level Single Target
Wizard (Evoker) 996
Warlock (Fiend Pact) 483
Warlock 475
Sorcerer (Draconic (Fire)) 468
Wizard 462
Sorcerer 428

The relative rankings haven't changed 5 levels later at 16th level (it may have fluctuated along the way, but I didn't calculate each individual level).

17th Level Area
Wizard (Evoker) 2350
Sorcerer (Draconic (Fire)) 2199
Wizard 2015
Sorcerer 2079
Warlock (Fiend Pact) 1575
Warlock 750

17th Level Single Target
Wizard (Evoker) 996
Warlock (Fiend Pact) 555
Warlock 544
Sorcerer (Draconic (Fire)) 507
Sorcerer 468
Wizard 462

At 17th level the only change in ranking is that single target sorcerer pulls ahead of single target wizard.

So, from what I can see, warlock retains its single target damage lead throughout the levels. Warlock isn't intended as an area effect blaster, and cannot excel at that compared to wizard or sorcerer, but it has the best single target damage throughout high levels. Comparing the various other class abilities that wizards, sorcerers, and warlocks have the only loser in this game appears to be the poor sorcerer. Sure, the draconic sorcerer has better hp than the wizard (on par with the warlock), but I just think they ought to be consistently putting out more boom than anyone except maybe the evoker, which they aren't.

In any event, I'm glad to see that my hunch that warlocks are fine at high level DPR has been confirmed, since I think the class is pretty cool and am glad it can accomplish what it's supposed to.

 

[kerbarian]

Here is the revised comparison (Evoker is italicized to highlight that the magic missile imbalance is where their power comes from):

It's in the PHB errata that Empowered Evocation (Evoker) and Elemental Affinity (Dragon sorcerer) only add to one damage roll of each spell, not all rolls. So I don't think the Evoker numbers will be nearly as high as in your model.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

It's in the PHB errata that Empowered Evocation (Evoker) and Elemental Affinity (Dragon sorcerer) only add to one damage roll of each spell, not all rolls. So I don't think the Evoker numbers will be nearly as high as in your model.

Yes this is true, and I took that into account. In the case of magic missile however, Jeremy Crawford has clarified that it is a single damage roll which can be applied more than once to the same target. So for a high enough level evoker, that means a 1st level spell slot gets you 3 missiles that each do (1d4+6) damage, which you can aim at the same target. This is following the RAW phrasing of how spells work, and he called out/verified magic missile as a special case. Again, it's crazy powerful, and a lot of people might want to make each missile be a different damage roll so you only add your mod once per casting. (It doesn't bother me enough to mess with at this point, hopefully it won't at higher levels.)

I also forgot to mention that I did not use the 9th level spell slots for meteor swarm in the 17th level simulations. If I had, it would add over 3000 points of damage to all the wizards and sorcerers (well, according to the parameters I described for the calculations, probably not in actual practice unless you are fighting a tribe of high hp monsters).

 

[kerbarian]

Yes this is true, and I took that into account. In the case of magic missile however, Jeremy Crawford has clarified that it is a single damage roll which can be applied more than once to the same target. So for a high enough level evoker, that means a 1st level spell slot gets you 3 missiles that each do (1d4+6) damage, which you can aim at the same target. This is following the RAW phrasing of how spells work, and he called out/verified magic missile as a special case. Again, it's crazy powerful, and a lot of people might want to make each missile be a different damage roll so you only add your mod once per casting. (It doesn't bother me enough to mess with at this point, hopefully it won't at higher levels.)

I also forgot to mention that I did not use the 9th level spell slots for meteor swarm in the 17th level simulations. If I had, it would add over 3000 points of damage to all the wizards and sorcerers (well, according to the parameters I described for the calculations, probably not in actual practice unless you are fighting a tribe of high hp monsters).

Interesting... I had assumed that (like previous editions) a damage roll for an area effect was made once and applied to all targets, while damage rolls for individual effects (Magic Missiles, Scorching Rays, Eldritch Blast beams, etc.) were made once per effect. However, I can't find anything in the PHB that says one way or the other -- not even anything that says that a Fireball should use the same damage roll for all targets.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Interesting... I had assumed that (like previous editions) a damage roll for an area effect was made once and applied to all targets, while damage rolls for individual effects (Magic Missiles, Scorching Rays, Eldritch Blast beams, etc.) were made once per effect. However, I can't find anything in the PHB that says one way or the other -- not even anything that says that a Fireball should use the same damage roll for all targets.

Here's what you're looking for:

"If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than
one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all
of them. For example, when a wizard casts fireball or a
cleric casts flame strike, the spell’s damage is rolled once
for all creatures caught in the blast." Player's Basic Rules p.75

(It's hidden non-intuitively in the combat chapter, rather than in the spell section where our gut tells us to look.)

So you do only make one roll for fireball, and if you have a feature that lets you add your ability modifier then you add it on, so it applies to everyone hit.

For non-area effects in general, as in scorching ray, the rays are each a separate attack roll, so a feature would only allow you to add your modifier to one of the rays.

In the case of magic missile, however, because it specifies that all of missiles strike at once, it functions similar to fireball--except that you can have the missiles strike the same target, thus allowing evokers to multiply their modifier.

Warlock's Agonizing Blast invocation is also a special case, since it allows you to add your modifier to each attack.

 

[AtomicPope]

I've been playing a Warlock for quite some time (since about 3 months after the Start Set released) and our group has advanced slowly but steadily. Currently, we're in the middle of 14th level with lots of magic items attuned to each character. I chose my character for the schtick more than anything else and sometimes it's a problem. Warlocks have to make tougher choices than other caster classes because their selection is greatly limited and so is their damage output. The lack of spell slots makes it difficult to decide when you should cast a using a spell slot or just use Eldritch Blast. As a result, I rely VERY heavily on magic items much more so than the other players. Full Disclosure: I've been VERY lucky with random magic table rolls, too lucky to the point where the DM had to tone down the actual results (my Girdle of Cloud Giant Strength at 7th level was lowered to Frost Giant Strength). Currently I'm attuned to a +2 Rod of the Pact Master and a Staff of Power. The save DC for my spells is sitting at a hard 20, allowing me to shut down all but the hardiest or luckiest monsters. We primarily face Devils since they have solid saves, lots of resistances and immunities which greatly hurts my Warlock's lack of variety.

My Warlock is a Feypact, which grants him access to several spell-like powers that recharge on a short rest. All told I have 3 powers that recharge on a short rest, 3 spell slots and 1 permanent power that uses a reaction to counter-attack. This is like having 6 spells plus 1 permanent spell defense against Charms. Looking at the Warlock Pacts from this perspective, I'm glad I chose Feypact as it seems like I'm really using 6 spells per short rest adding to the variety of status effect powers. However, those powers and spells are similar to have a middling caster in a high level game. So for me it's almost as if I'm able to cast 6 low to mid level spells per short rest. I suppose there are ways to exploit your powers, to use your Mystic Arcanum to recharge your spell slots. I've already used Forcecage to trap our own party inside just so we (especially me) could get a short rest before a deadly encounter. But players being douchey-creative isn't necessarily the class, it's just players mitigating class disadvantages (like the 5min work day), but I digress.

The lack of true spell slots and spell selection means you have to be less impulsive within those narrowly defined limits (translation: Warlocks are predictable). The Mystic Arcanum are really no different than what any other caster can do until you need to boost the perfect spell. This could be seen as a class feature to differentiate the Warlock from other casters but it is somewhat of a nuisance. Other classes can "Nova" pretty much any spell they can cast using a higher slot. Warlocks always use their highest slot but that stops at level 5. This means when you're able to cast something like "Hold Monster" you'll only ever affect one target. Putting that into game terms, Warlocks are a half-caster class that has access to a full-caster's spell list. Allow me to explain.

Currently I have a 6th and 7th level Mystic Arcanum, but they're not spell slots so I can't convert them to allow Hold Monster to affect more than 1 monster. This pushes Warlocks to the middle of the pack of casters (5th level spell slots max is like a half caster), while still granting them access to higher level spells (7th level and higher Mystic Arcanum is like a full caster). That's one of the curious builds of a Warlock that you'll never see until you're playing a high level Warlock. Yes you can cast a powerful spell like Hold Monster or Banishment, but you're not going to affect 3 or 4 targets. Ever. You're essentially a half-caster with a couple of high level spell-like abilities usable once per day. I believe this is why the power-gamer intuition focuses on lower level Warlock dips to capitalize on the classes strengths without being saddled by the weaknesses of higher level Warlocks. Just dipping 2 or 3 levels into Warlocks adds a great variety to any Cha caster's spell power, but the reverse is not equally true for Warlocks. You can dip a few levels into Warlock but then go all the way as Bard or Sorcerer to have greater spell variety and lots of spell slots, even 8th and 9th level. Thus reaching full potential as a spell caster and adding the variety that Warlocks lack.

 

[EroGaki]

That's an interesting analysis! So in a way, warlocks are kind of stuck in between being full casters and half casters?

Has that proven to be a problem in high level play?