D&D General The Crab Bucket Fallacy

[Scribe]

Then maybe it's a feature, not a bug. I don't need my fighter to be as good as the bard in social situations any more than I expect the bard to be a front line tank that consistently deals out more damage than other classes. Different roles different goals.

How dire would it be, if every class was as good at everything, as every other class? No thanks.

On that note, its off to work time!

 

[Minigiant]

I'm sorry you're not getting what you want, but you said you don't want to homebrew, and complaining to us isn't going to get a game designer to do what you want, so I'm not sure what can be done under those conditions.

I do homebrew when I DM.
The issue comes when I and many other are not the DM.

Exactly!

Its the perception of paying lip service to 'all pillars' that seems to matter more. Effective? Pointless. Efficient? Pointless. Focused design? Pointless.

That anyone would think this 'option' actually matters or solves anything, in a 'team based' game where other players are encouraged to solve various aspects of the challenge and scenarios presented by the DM/Adventure?

No. Just no. The idea that this is an improved design? That its somehow 'better'? No.

Well the playtest is still a patch. It isn't full fixing into fundamental problems.
Barbarians should get more more rages if this is a feature.

 

[Minigiant]

Then maybe it's a feature, not a bug. I don't need my fighter to be as good as the bard in social situations any more than I expect the bard to be a front line tank that consistently deals out more damage than other classes. Different roles different goals.

I don't want that too,
I wan there for times when a fighter can be the face if the bard isn't there or be a option when they are.

Like the Warlord Fighter could have a higher Intimidation maximum than a bard but the bard having the better Persuasion or Deception.
Or have the Thane Barbarian have a floor of 15 with CHA checks but the Bard having higher bonuses.
Oe have the Paladin have better exploration rolls near holy or unholy ground.

Have the party decide who should be doing X based on the situation instead of bland black and white simple mechanics which shove roles to classes.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I do homebrew when I DM.
The issue comes when I and many other are not the DM.


Well the playtest is still a patch. It isn't full fixing into fundamental problems.
Barbarians should get more more rages if this is a feature.

When I don't DM, I convince my DM is use my houserules. It's just another document to them.

 

[Cadence]

More you can't really duplicate a 4E warlord in 5E. We all know why it's gone. You can approximate one in 5E easy enough espicially with tashas or order cleric dip.

Apologies if I missed this in the intervening 20 pages I haven't caught up on...

So how close to a Warlord in terms of ability can one get using the various extant classes like Cleric, Bard, and Paladin and just ignoring that they're using magic?

 

[SteveC]

I've been looking in on this thread from time to time and I see people moving to positions where you can't really have a coherent discussion because people are disagreeing at fundamental points you need to reach an understanding on to even start talking.

Here's my example: D&D has three pillars of play that are described by the designers. This means that during a session you'll find yourself, broadly, in three different modes of play. I don't understand how it's anything but a given that each class would have something do do when each of those pillars comes to the front. Some classes will be better than others, but each class will be able to contribute something based on what they are.

The biggest problem with this is that the exploration and social pillars aren't really explained in the same detail as combat, so there isn't enough depth to them to design for it. There are third party products that expand on exploration, and from what I've read they do give each class something to do.

Design core products, call them Robilar's Pillars of the Game, or something similar, and create class features so a fighter might be a good quartermaster, or be on the lookout for threats in a social situation, and you'd avoid this issue. Having time in the session where a class has nothing to contribute, outside of things anyone can do regardless of class, makes those classes seem worthless in them. And it bores players. But if we don't even see it as a problem that the fighter is drifting off or acting up during the King's Ball, the discussion might as well not take place because all we're going to do is talk past each other and make the poor mods' days tough by getting snarky.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Like I said most of the RPGs come from the same mental places. I don't remember seeing one adventurer RPG that has fixed the ability score problem.

I'll just note there are ones that have gotten rid of ability scores, or where they contribute less to skills, or where skills are based on multiple scores. The D&D style approach here is far from the only one.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'll just note there are ones that have gotten rid of ability scores, or where they contribute less to skills, or where skills are based on multiple scores. The D&D style approach here is far from the only one.

Not even every version of D&D emphasizes ability scores as much as the WotC editions do. TSR had a flatter curve, and those that had skills at all didn't ride or die on an associated ability score.

 

[Minigiant]

I'll just note there are ones that have gotten rid of ability scores, or where they contribute less to skills, or where skills are based on multiple scores. The D&D style approach here is far from the only one.

That's not solving ability scores. That's removing them.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Not even every version of D&D emphasizes ability scores as much as the WotC editions do. TSR had a flatter curve, and those that had skills at all didn't ride or die on an associated ability score.

Well, I'm not competent to comment on that, since I mostly jumped from OD&D (where, barring the thief skills) there were no skills, to 3e where the discussion at hand is already relevant.