D&D 5E (2014) Can thrown weapons be used for sneak attack damage?

[Athinar]

I wish I had never brought up the subject

 

[Paraxis]

SA can be used with any ranged or finesse weapon. What is a ranged weapon? Any weapon that that has a range. So if a weapon has a range expressed (range XX/YY) it can be used to sneak attack.

That is not what defines a ranged weapon in 5e. A weapon is either melee or ranged, it can not be both. A dagger is a melee weapon it has a range because it has the thrown property, that doesn't change it into a ranged weapon.

You can disagree and rule differently at your table, but it doesn't change the rules as they are written in the game, and the default assumptions of how the game is played.

 

[Athinar]

It's Crawford's way or the highway, No Melee Ranged Sneak Attack, It's Crawford's way or the highway

 

[Gecko85]

It's Crawford's way or the highway, No Melee Ranged Sneak Attack, It's Crawford's way or the highway

Stop being petulant. Crawford gave his RAW ruling. YOU'RE FREE TO USE RAI, RAF, OR A HOUSE RULE. The creators of 5e, including Crawford, explicitly state the rules are guidelines and the DM can modify as necessary.

 

[zacronos]

A dagger is a melee weapon. It has the Thrown property, which allows you to "throw the weapon to make a ranged attack. (p 147). Note that this doesn't transform it from a melee weapon into a ranged weapon.

It's still a melee weapon. Refer to the chart on page 149. It has all the information you need.

By that same logic, if you use a bow to bludgeon someone over the head, RAW you may in fact deal sneak attack damage -- the bow does not stop being a ranged weapon just because you use it to make an improvised melee attack.

The Improvised Weapon rules state "If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also does 1d4 damage." So, it is clearly stated that I can use a ranged weapon to make a melee attack. The quoted logic dictates that a weapon does not change its melee/ranged classification based on how it is used, so a melee attack using a bow is an attack using a ranged weapon. The sneak attack rules state "The attack must use a finesse weapon or a ranged weapon", and therefore RAW such an attack would qualify for sneak attack damage. QED.

 

[SoltariNagumoto]

Sorry guys but if we're going by the book the thrown property does not a ranged weapon make. This question basically comes down to confusion on the difference between the terms weapon and attack I'll use underlines for one term and italics for the other in hopes people will begin to note that the rules are very specific as to the difference between weapons and attacks. I promise the rules do make sense and they’re far less ambiguous than many seem to think, I hope if you stick with me to the end of this you’ll see that.

In the sneak attack description it specifies "The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon." This requirement refers specifically to the properties of the weapon used to make the attack, not to the attack itself.

If you look at your weapons chart the weapons are separated into melee and ranged weapons. Melee and ranged are weapon types that give innate properties to the weapons.

Melee weapons can innately only be used to make melee attacks.
Melee attacks are innately tied to the strength stat and can only hit targets within five feet.

Ranged weapons can only be used to make ranged attacks.
Ranged attacks are innately tied to the dexterity stat and always have disadvantage when their target is within five feet. Ranged weapons always have either the thrown or ammunition property, this tells you what the normal and long range for their attacks are and also whether you throw the weapon itself or it expends ammunition when used to make an attack.

If you throw any weapon that doesn't have the thrown property or use a ranged weapon to make a melee attack your weapon immediately becomes an improvised weapon. That’s why the rules for doing either of those things are listed under the improvised weapons heading.

Improvised weapons always deal 1d4 damage and have no special properties unless the DM rules that they can be thrown in which case they gain the thrown property giving them a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.

Now that we know what the three weapon types are let's look at the other special properties weapons can have that seem to confuse people when talking about sneak attacks.

Thrown is a weapon property that allows you to throw the weapon to make a ranged attack, it specifies that if the weapon is a melee weapon you use the same ability modifier as you would use for a melee attack with said weapon, this does not turn the weapon into a ranged weapon. It simply allows ranged attacks and informs us that when making a ranged attack with the weapon the weapon itself is thrown rather than expending ammunition, it also informs us of the normal and long range limits for ranged attacks using said weapon.

Finesse is a weapon property that allows you to choose either your strength or dexterity modifier for attack and damage rolls with that weapon regardless of whether you're making a ranged attack (normally tied to dex) or a melee attack (normally tied to str).

Both of these properties are present among both melee and ranged weapons.

Putting it all together, here are some specific examples of how these rules work out, I'm focusing specifically on examples where you throw a weapon as that's the subject in question on this thread.

Throwing your greataxe doesn't make it a ranged weapon, it makes it an improvised weapon that deals 1d4 damage and has the thrown property with a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet. As the finesse property is also missing it does not qualify for the requirements of a sneak attack. So no, your half-orc rogue can not sneak attack with his greataxe even if he throws it.

Let's try it with a shortsword or rapier, they already have the finesse property so they'll work right? Nope, the moment you use a melee weapon without the thrown property to make a ranged attack it becomes an improvised weapon. Since improvised weapons don’t have the finesse property. You have the same issues here as you did with the greataxe.

Let's try for a sneak attack using a handaxe. It already has the thrown property so throwing it doesn't turn it into an improvised weapon. Thrown only adds an option for making a ranged attack. It doesn’t change the weapon type at all and the handaxe doesn't have finesse so yes you can throw it and it keeps its stats. But no, you still can't make a sneak attack with it since it doesn’t meet either of the weapon based sneak attack requirements.

How about throwing a dagger? It's a melee weapon and it has both the thrown property and the finesse property. Because it retains its own stats when thrown it keeps the finesse property when thrown, thus it fulfills the sneak attack requirement of being a finesse weapon so yes, it can be thrown for a sneak attack!

Of course, house rules can make anything work however you want and there is nothing wrong with this as long as your house rules are known and you keep them consistent. Your DM or you as a DM could rule this differently but this is how it works according to the rules as written.

I recognize this post is a bit exhaustive and went into further detail on the examples than most were probably looking for. I used only examples of things that I've actually had to address as a DM and I wanted to make sure if anyone read this they'd be ready for those situations themselves.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Sorry guys but if we're going by the book the thrown property does not a ranged weapon make.

Here's the problem. The rules are written in English. When someone says "that guy attacked me with a ranged weapon" and you weren't playing D&D, you'd think that would include anything at all that could be thrown, launched or shot at you. So, when you read a book that says "when you attack with a ranged weapon", you'd likely think that likewise includes anything that was not used in melee. The book is still vague enough to rule either way. After all, how does one make a ranged attack with a melee weapon if a melee weapon can only attack things within 5 feet of you, like the rules say. That's an impossibility. It has to, at least temporarily, become a ranged weapon for the duration of the attack since the rules say only ranged weapons can attack at a range further than 5 feet(and thrown weapons let you make a ranged attack with the weapon. But once again, if a weapon is used at range, it is logically a ranged weapon).

Yes, things like dagger and the like are in a table that says "Melee Weapons" and they are separate from another part of the same chart that says "Ranged Weapons". If the rules are referring to the classification in that table and nothing else, then it is completely clear. But if at any point we assume the rules MIGHT be referring to the English definition of "Ranged" or "Ranged Weapon" instead of a definition made up expressly for D&D, then things get a little hazy.

Although, yes, the Sage is looking at the exact same thing you are when he made his ruling that Melee Weapons with the Thrown property aren't "ranged weapons". Which is why he ruled the way he did.

A while back, the Sage explicitly said that whenever he answers a rules question he won't use his own judgement even if he plays it differently at his own table. He would always answer the letter of what was written in the book since he did not want 2 tables using 2 different rules whenever possible. He stated that any statement from him that contradicted what was written in the book would be constituted by a bunch of people on the internet as an official "errata" to the book and he didn't want to issue "errata" from on high like that. Any errata was going to be carefully considered and discussed among the whole team to decide whether it was NECESSARY. Thus, the very small sheet of errata that they issued.

So, we should expect the Sage to be extremely literal in his interpretation of the rules. Unfortunately, this makes his rules next to useless since even he has said that the rules were written to be interpreted by a human. We should expect most DMs to use their own judgement in terms or interpreting the rules in the most logical and straightforward method as possible to make the game fun for everyone. Our group had this discussion and decided that characters who throw daggers with precision sounded like fun and were within the genre of D&D and we all didn't like the idea that some weapons weren't ranged when used at range.

And what it comes down to is that there's no way to "break" the game by using thrown weapons with any ability in the game that requires the use of a "Ranged Weapon". Most of the time choosing to use a thrown weapon instead of a Ranged weapon is strictly worse. Sometimes its approximately equal.

If an idea isn't game breaking, seems logical, fits within the genre, and is fun to play with it meets all the criteria to allow, IMHO.

 

[epithet]

By that same logic, if you use a bow to bludgeon someone over the head, RAW you may in fact deal sneak attack damage -- the bow does not stop being a ranged weapon just because you use it to make an improvised melee attack.

The Improvised Weapon rules state "If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also does 1d4 damage." So, it is clearly stated that I can use a ranged weapon to make a melee attack. The quoted logic dictates that a weapon does not change its melee/ranged classification based on how it is used, so a melee attack using a bow is an attack using a ranged weapon. The sneak attack rules state "The attack must use a finesse weapon or a ranged weapon", and therefore RAW such an attack would qualify for sneak attack damage. QED.

Actually, no. If you use the bow to hit someone with, Arrow-style, it becomes an improvised weapon. Your DM might treat it as a club. No finesse, so no sneak attack.

A dagger is a finesse weapon. That property applies regardless of whether it is used for a melee strike or thrown, so yes... you can get sneak attack damage from throwing a dagger, as long as the other conditions for sneak attack are present. This is not complicated.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

Some thrown weapons are considered ranged weapons (dart).

 

[MG.0]

The creators of 5e, including Crawford, explicitly state the rules are guidelines and the DM can modify as necessary.

D&D has always been about guidelines, not rules. Even if the designers decide from on high that a rule is inviolable, I can always tell them to take a flying leap.

Like every edition of every RPG before it and every one to follow, the official rules are a mixture of brilliant, mediocre, and insanely stupid. Pick and choose what you like, and alter it as you see fit. It really is that simple. Anyone who thinks otherwise would probably be happier playing a videogame or some silly card game.

D&D will never be quantized like Magic: The Gathering, or The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, no matter what the gods of marketing desire.