d20 Super Heroes --- coming in July '06 from WOTC
- Thread starter JPL
- Start date
JoeGKushner
Adventurer
jdrakeh said:
I think you're seriously underestimating the amount of power an official logo has. I'm not saying it'll be the d20 super hero game everyone plays, but it may very well be the one everyone buys.
Does anyone have any numbers on how well d20 Past sold? I wouldn't be surprised if it was one of the best selling d20 Modern products even though there are many 3rd party products that are better. Being able to buy it at Barnes & Nobles or Borders is an easy sell.
JoeGKushner said:
None of the d20 Modern products have sold well, according to the guy at Alliance I know. That may be something local, mind. I've personally seen the D20M stuff sit on the shelves of the local Hastings and B&N gathering dust for months. Not as easy a sell as you might think, or WotC would have us believe, Joe. MnM has the advantage of (IMO) better trade dress - it's more colorful, more eyecatching and grabs the casual buyer in ways that the D20M trade dress (which looks like a boring manual) doesn't. YMMV, of course.
Jim Hague said:
If Wizards was really clever, they'd make d20SH standalone, based on the modern rules, damn the trade dress and give it a big colorful comic-book cover, and work their butts off to get it distributed to comic stores. Some of the comic stores around here carry RPGs, but not all of them, but if Wizards can get stuff into media play and walmart, I'd say they can get a book out to comic stores.
JoeGKushner said:
[Insert useless anecdotal observations and hearsay from fat guy who run local game store.]
Y'know, until an actual employee of WOTC or Green Ronin or whoever gives us some actual numbers, all talk of what's a big seller and what's not is going nowhere fast.
Note that what constitutes a "good seller" or a "successful product" may be quite different for different companies. Note when comparing d20 Super Heroes and M&M that the former appears to be a done-in-one supplement for d20 Modern [with the option to do followups, of course], while the latter is an ongoing series. Different design goals, different sales goals.
We're comparing apples and oranges, except the apples won't even be grown for another six months.
DanMcS said:
Sure, and that'd make perfect sense - it's just good marketing to grab a potential customer visually. One problem that I think the product'll run into is that the new/casual gamer doesn't want to learn a lot of rules, and definitely doesn't want to spend a lot of money. 'Course, that's another discussion entirely...
Faerl'Elghinn
First Post
If It Ain't Broke...
Mutants & Masterminds is every bit as polished and professional in appearance as anything I have ever seen from Wizards of the Coast, with the added advantage of having such good content that it is truly a monumental task to find any real criticism. Wizards of the Coast products, although always aesthetically excellent--albeit no more so than M & M--simply do not generally have the level of quality in game content that is evident throughout the M & M books. Personally, I am not interested in replacing M & M with any other product--it's simply every bit as good as I could possibly want it to be, and I would expect the majority of people who have read the books or played the game to agree with me.
Unfortunately, this means that WotC will be investing its considerable resources in a project which is very unlikely to be successful. While the company seems intent on cramming an endless stream of core rulebooks, campaign settings, and "rules accessories" down our throats, it also seems unwilling to make any of these items as useful as it could by providing a steady flow of quality adventure material. The (apparent) intended result of this overabundance of rules unaccompanied by the means to utilize them seems to be that gaming groups grow bored with each new offering quickly enough that they engage in a futile pursuit of something which might restore fun to the game. Because very few of the company's releases represent this ideal, this quest can be expected to continue indefinitely.
Heaven forbid that the company should endeavor to make the game more enjoyable to those who have invested countless dollars in it. While my group and I are capable of creating a great deal of home-brewed fun, I sincerely miss the days of Dragon Mountain, Ruins of the Undermountain, and Return to the Tomb of Horrors. The player hand-outs, vivid descriptions, unique magic items, creative obstacles, innovative encounters, and professional artwork from epic adventures such as these were responsible for the development of our most cherished characters. In fact, the characters from our Dragon Mountain campaign have yet to retire. Over the last thirteen years or so, they have made the transition from second to third editions, and occasionally continue to adventure on a cosmic scale, most recently in a modified Spelljammer campaign involving the pursuit of deific status on Faerun (and other fun stuff, such as Persistent Time Stop and +30 strength bonuses).
The point is that, although all of these new game concepts, prestige classes, and settings are all well and good, and many of them are quite inspiring and creative, what we really need is a decent library of things to do with them. I am so very weary of reading about what kinds of characters I can make and what kinds of things they could do if only there were enough good adventure material for them to get to the level at which they might have the option to do them. As a DM, I find the creation of adventure material, especially fully-statted major NPCs and antagonists, to be extremely tedious under the new rules. In fact, I am beginning to feel that the new rules are so meticulous that they detract from the other aspects of the game. I would much rather drop my hard-earned cash for some material which would keep my players engaged for an extended period of time without my having to spend hours on end generating this material. As a player, I am tired of watching the DM advance monsters for half of the session, and I am tired of playing through half-baked scenarios. If this is the new face of D & D, then perhaps I am tired of D & D itself (*sigh*).
I own M & M. I walked into the store, opened it up, and even despite all of the glowing reviews I had read, I was absolutely amazed. I was compelled to purchase it--it was simply one of the coolest things I had ever seen in my entire long gaming career, and my friends all agreed. We don't need anything else. Mutants & Masterminds is the ultimate superhero game, and WotC is kidding itself if it thinks it can do better. In fact, maybe it would be better served by producing some good Superlink material--in my opinion, the quality of M & M is such that Green Ronin has marginalized even the malevolent overlord of the RPG industry to the point that acting as a third party publisher might be the only way that it can credibly enter the market in the superhero genre.
Mutants & Masterminds is every bit as polished and professional in appearance as anything I have ever seen from Wizards of the Coast, with the added advantage of having such good content that it is truly a monumental task to find any real criticism. Wizards of the Coast products, although always aesthetically excellent--albeit no more so than M & M--simply do not generally have the level of quality in game content that is evident throughout the M & M books. Personally, I am not interested in replacing M & M with any other product--it's simply every bit as good as I could possibly want it to be, and I would expect the majority of people who have read the books or played the game to agree with me.
Unfortunately, this means that WotC will be investing its considerable resources in a project which is very unlikely to be successful. While the company seems intent on cramming an endless stream of core rulebooks, campaign settings, and "rules accessories" down our throats, it also seems unwilling to make any of these items as useful as it could by providing a steady flow of quality adventure material. The (apparent) intended result of this overabundance of rules unaccompanied by the means to utilize them seems to be that gaming groups grow bored with each new offering quickly enough that they engage in a futile pursuit of something which might restore fun to the game. Because very few of the company's releases represent this ideal, this quest can be expected to continue indefinitely.
Heaven forbid that the company should endeavor to make the game more enjoyable to those who have invested countless dollars in it. While my group and I are capable of creating a great deal of home-brewed fun, I sincerely miss the days of Dragon Mountain, Ruins of the Undermountain, and Return to the Tomb of Horrors. The player hand-outs, vivid descriptions, unique magic items, creative obstacles, innovative encounters, and professional artwork from epic adventures such as these were responsible for the development of our most cherished characters. In fact, the characters from our Dragon Mountain campaign have yet to retire. Over the last thirteen years or so, they have made the transition from second to third editions, and occasionally continue to adventure on a cosmic scale, most recently in a modified Spelljammer campaign involving the pursuit of deific status on Faerun (and other fun stuff, such as Persistent Time Stop and +30 strength bonuses).
The point is that, although all of these new game concepts, prestige classes, and settings are all well and good, and many of them are quite inspiring and creative, what we really need is a decent library of things to do with them. I am so very weary of reading about what kinds of characters I can make and what kinds of things they could do if only there were enough good adventure material for them to get to the level at which they might have the option to do them. As a DM, I find the creation of adventure material, especially fully-statted major NPCs and antagonists, to be extremely tedious under the new rules. In fact, I am beginning to feel that the new rules are so meticulous that they detract from the other aspects of the game. I would much rather drop my hard-earned cash for some material which would keep my players engaged for an extended period of time without my having to spend hours on end generating this material. As a player, I am tired of watching the DM advance monsters for half of the session, and I am tired of playing through half-baked scenarios. If this is the new face of D & D, then perhaps I am tired of D & D itself (*sigh*).
I own M & M. I walked into the store, opened it up, and even despite all of the glowing reviews I had read, I was absolutely amazed. I was compelled to purchase it--it was simply one of the coolest things I had ever seen in my entire long gaming career, and my friends all agreed. We don't need anything else. Mutants & Masterminds is the ultimate superhero game, and WotC is kidding itself if it thinks it can do better. In fact, maybe it would be better served by producing some good Superlink material--in my opinion, the quality of M & M is such that Green Ronin has marginalized even the malevolent overlord of the RPG industry to the point that acting as a third party publisher might be the only way that it can credibly enter the market in the superhero genre.
Last edited:
Similar Threads
