High Level Fighter Vs. High Level Barbarian

Then either your DM is not using foes to their fullest potential, you are in situations where standard foes do not apply, or you have excellent backup from your cleric and / or wizard.

A high level character that wants to be self-sufficient needs to have these abilities, or he will roll over and die to the first flying invisible spellcaster that he meets. Jumping won't help you when the foe is 500' straight up, nor will listen at -50 to the DC from distance.
 

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My barbarian doesn't have any magic items and he seems to do ok.

I quite agree that a fighter with lots of gadgets can do more than a fighter with no gadgets, but it all depends on the type of character you want to role play.


James McMurray said:
A high level character that wants to be self-sufficient needs to have these abilities, or he will roll over and die to the first flying invisible spellcaster that he meets. Jumping won't help you when the foe is 500' straight up, nor will listen at -50 to the DC from distance.
 
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Cool. I can only assume you're in a non-standard campaign, or our definitions of "high level" are vastly different. :)

No biggee, but generally at high levels (15+) a character without gear appropriate to hi level loses a large portion of his effectivenes.

Just out of curiosity, what do you do about DR that's x/magic or x/good, etc.?
 

CW Shock Trooper Heedless Charge, full power attack.
damage = d8 (long sword) +40 power attack + 15 strength = d8 +55
to hit= +2 charge +10 strength +1 masterwork +20 BAB =+33 to hit

Works ok in the charge round. After the charge round, high DR/high AC is a definite problem. Bull Rush and Grapple come into play then. And, my character is the only character in the party that is doing this, the other characters have standard magic items.

James McMurray said:
Just out of curiosity, what do you do about DR that's x/magic or x/good, etc.?
 

Crothian said:
So, you think at this level the equipment is more defining of the character then the class abilities? It seems to be a sad day in my eyes when ones equipment is more important then the character.

Yep, one of the reasons some don't like playing high level games.
 

That brings its own problems. The math of D&D is such that the usefulness of many feats and builds depends upon equipment.

For instance, compare a 20th level fighter with fullplate and a shield (nonmagical) to a 20th level fighter with no armor and a greatsword. Against most foes at that level, there is no significant difference between AC 20 and AC 10. Every attack will hit except on a one either way. Let's pretend for the moment that the sword and shield fighter has a 13 dex for dodge with a 16 strength and the two handed fighter has an 18 strength to take full advantage of his 1.5 str bonus. Going from AC 20 to 22 makes no difference for the defensively oriented fighter. He's still going to be hit on a one even when many foes are power attacking for ten points. Going from doing 2d6+4 (16 str assumed default) to 2d6+6 (18 str), however, is significant for the other fighter.

Now, however, take a different comparison. +5 fullplate, +5 shield, +5 amulet of natural armor, +5 ring of protection, and boots of speed. Now the sword and shield fighter can easily have an AC of 43 (with dodge) but the other character is stuck with AC 36. At that level, this is a very significant difference that will often result in the sword and shield fighter taking 2/3-1/2 the damage that the two handed fighter takes.

Because attack bonusses automatically increase with level progression but defense remains largely static, the utility of any build focussed on defense will be understated (in many cases, vastly) by a comparison that excludes magic items. Conversely, offensively oriented warrior builds--particularly barbarians--will unduly benefit from the exclusion of magic items.

And, as to equipment becoming more important than class abilities--that's always been the case in D&D and if you think it's bad now, try remembering second edition. In 3.x, there's a vast difference between a finesse fighter who started with a 13 strength, took weapon finesse, dodge, mobility, spring attack, combat expertise, improved disarm, and later duelist levels, and a bruiser who started with an 18 strength and took power attack, cleave, great cleave, improved sunder, and later took Fist of Hextor levels. Playing Baldur's Gate II, I've noticed that there's really minimal difference between how my paladin plays in combat and how Sarevok plays and how Mazzy or Minsc play--and that difference is primarily in whether he's wielding a holy avenger (the paladin), the Ravager halberd (Sarevok), or dual wielding the Sword of Mask (or Foebane) and Kundane (Mazzy) and which girdle of giant strength and suit of armor they're wearing. Feats, skills, and feat chains make a huge difference in 3.x. However, a large degree of equipment focus at high levels is inevitable. Equipment is--as described above--a large part of what makes the choices between various focusses meaningful. (Also, unless you make it useless, it will add capability to characters and then the character's capability will HAVE to be measured with that in consideration).

Crothian said:
Then it becomes more important what equipment you have and not what class you are. I comparison of classes should use no magical equipment because of that.
 

Hmm... No one has built a barbarian to fight Endor's fighter? I might be up for the challenge, but it might take me a while.

EDIT: after thinking a while, I've decided that this is in fact a silly exercise. Assuming that I'll be facing a barbarian killer fighter, a normal barbarian would be useless. (the classic example would be a ranged fighter with Fly potions) Given that there is a counter for every strategy, I'll pick the strategy that I think is least likely to be countered. Of course, this will result in a VERY non-standard barbarian.
 
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Introducing Mugly, gnome "barbarian".

Mugly- 12th level gnome barbarian

Str 6 (0 pts)
Dex 10 (2pts)
Con 18 (10pts)
Int 8 (0pts)
Wis 8 (0pts)
Cha 18 (16pts) +6 cloak =24

AC 11
Hp 126

Saves: Will +3, Fort +12, ref +4

Initiative +5

Skills:
Use Magic Device +18
Wilderness lore +14
Literate
Spellcraft +8

Feats:
Skill Focus: Use magic device
Dodge
Improved Initiative
Weapon Focus (heavy pick)
Toughness

Equipment:

Cloak of Charisma (+6) (36000 gp)
Wand of Hold Person Heightened to 4th level DC 16 to resist (21000 gp)
Wand of Greater Invisibility (21000 gp)
Wand of Magic Missile (9th) (6750 gp)
Small Heavy Pick
Used 84758 gp
 

I'm placing this in spoiler space since it talks about the Barbarian above

Well, I must say I've never seen a barbarian that was less of a barbarian. And I think it does a good job of proving that equipment should be greatly restricted. If it wins the battle it won't be becasue of anything the barbarian can do, but solely on the items he has. Might as well make it a commoner
 

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