Dire Lemming
First Post
Yeah, Enko is starting to think she's just nuts... Ok, actually it's me who thinks she's just nuts. Enko doesn't know what to think. He can't bring himself to think something like that of her.
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NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
Into the New World - OOC - Calling NMF and Masquerade!
- Thread starter Zurai
- Start date
Mmm.
I'm going to not be offended by the implied statement in yer post, Lemming...though it's worth pointing out that it could easily be construed as an attack on the rest of us. Remember that intents in the magic world of text on pages aren't as easy to gauge when there's no body language/tone/expression/etc to help us out.
To respond: I'm not sure exactly what the "utopian neolithic era" of the game has to do with this. Human beings are human beings. When they're attacked, they get ticked off; even fight back. I can't stress this enough - They attacked us. As we slept. Does that mean killing them is a perfectly rational act? Is there no valid argument for taking prisoners, or trying, as Enko is, to open talks? Of course there is. And no, it's not perfectly rational. But it is, I think, perfectly understandable, and, I maintain, a normal enough human reaction.
And even us peaceful hunter gatherer types live in a dangerous and hostile world...threatened by animals, by each other, and by spirits and creatures we barely understand. When confronted by nasty, icky horrible monsters with froggy eyes and sharp teeth, who come at you with knives of sharpened bones and screeching in some horrible inhuman tongue, I think the human being who -doesn't- feel an atavistic urge to grab a stick and keep thwacking until it stops moving is a rare exception.
In summary: I don't see the problem with anyone's RP. Including Enko's. I find his reaction a bit surprising in its vehemence, but that's all. If I could be said to have a problem, it'd be far more in your continuing to try to imply or suggest that we're not RP'ing our characters 'correctly' or well. I especially find the assumption that we're subscribing to a mindlessly aggressive "typical D&D" mindset more than a little insulting.
Give us a little credit, alright?
I'm going to not be offended by the implied statement in yer post, Lemming...though it's worth pointing out that it could easily be construed as an attack on the rest of us. Remember that intents in the magic world of text on pages aren't as easy to gauge when there's no body language/tone/expression/etc to help us out.
To respond: I'm not sure exactly what the "utopian neolithic era" of the game has to do with this. Human beings are human beings. When they're attacked, they get ticked off; even fight back. I can't stress this enough - They attacked us. As we slept. Does that mean killing them is a perfectly rational act? Is there no valid argument for taking prisoners, or trying, as Enko is, to open talks? Of course there is. And no, it's not perfectly rational. But it is, I think, perfectly understandable, and, I maintain, a normal enough human reaction.
And even us peaceful hunter gatherer types live in a dangerous and hostile world...threatened by animals, by each other, and by spirits and creatures we barely understand. When confronted by nasty, icky horrible monsters with froggy eyes and sharp teeth, who come at you with knives of sharpened bones and screeching in some horrible inhuman tongue, I think the human being who -doesn't- feel an atavistic urge to grab a stick and keep thwacking until it stops moving is a rare exception.
In summary: I don't see the problem with anyone's RP. Including Enko's. I find his reaction a bit surprising in its vehemence, but that's all. If I could be said to have a problem, it'd be far more in your continuing to try to imply or suggest that we're not RP'ing our characters 'correctly' or well. I especially find the assumption that we're subscribing to a mindlessly aggressive "typical D&D" mindset more than a little insulting.
Give us a little credit, alright?
I rather like Enko's viewpoint as it adds spice to the roleplaying. However, human beings are voilent and greedy by nature. Just look at our world. With all the culture and understanding we've developped over the millenias, you'd think we'd have achieved a peaceful utopia by now. It will never happen. Because whatever we humans may say we want, humans don't want peace. They don't thrive on peace. I see Cuirlen much the same way. If it was a true utopia, everyone would be a vegetarian for starters. There would be no horses, which we have enslaved to suit our various needs. There would be no cattle or pigs, whose sole reason to exist in Cuirlen is to grow fat and be murdered in their prime to provide us with tasty treat. We wouldn't hunt the various wildlife, taking the lives of hundreds of fellow living biengs every year merely to add variety to our menu, or to cloth ourselves in their skins, or perhaps worst of all, to use their skins as a monetary system. We do these things because we are humans. We are human, they are animals, we matter, they don't. Period. Had we started as Elves, things might have been different, because theres no real knowledge of Elven behavior, there are no Elves in the real world (that i'm aware of, but i keep looking over my shoulder in the woods).
Now, i don't see how we Cuirlenians would feel sympathy towards these creatures. We kill poor defenseless creatures every day in order to feast on them and whatnot already. Now these so called "poor defenseless creatures" had demented eyes, razor sharp teeth, bone carved blades, webbed feet, and most importantly, they attacked us. And although we have no idea of the why that they attacked, it doesn't really matter. You wake up and theres some sort of humanoid thing baring down on you with a knife. It's intent is clear. Do you ponder what is going on, what you may have done to anger it or whatnot, or do you kill it before it kills you? Then everybody else is awake and on their feet. Mob mentality kicks in. Action is called for. IQ drops significantly. Mobs don't think, they act. Sometimes, most times, they do very stupid things, things the individual persons would never do on their own. But they aren't their own anymore, they're part of the mob. When the mob's goal has been achieved, it disperses, and the people become individuals again. A person like Enko might feel horror at what the mob did and for his part in it, while people like Ryon, Thane, and Artemisia, who regularly kill things and engage in the skin trade, might not even care. To these 3, the things were just animals, because they surely weren't humans. Thus, they don't matter. Period.
That's my view anyway. And i'm not a vegetarian or PETA supporter either.
Now, i don't see how we Cuirlenians would feel sympathy towards these creatures. We kill poor defenseless creatures every day in order to feast on them and whatnot already. Now these so called "poor defenseless creatures" had demented eyes, razor sharp teeth, bone carved blades, webbed feet, and most importantly, they attacked us. And although we have no idea of the why that they attacked, it doesn't really matter. You wake up and theres some sort of humanoid thing baring down on you with a knife. It's intent is clear. Do you ponder what is going on, what you may have done to anger it or whatnot, or do you kill it before it kills you? Then everybody else is awake and on their feet. Mob mentality kicks in. Action is called for. IQ drops significantly. Mobs don't think, they act. Sometimes, most times, they do very stupid things, things the individual persons would never do on their own. But they aren't their own anymore, they're part of the mob. When the mob's goal has been achieved, it disperses, and the people become individuals again. A person like Enko might feel horror at what the mob did and for his part in it, while people like Ryon, Thane, and Artemisia, who regularly kill things and engage in the skin trade, might not even care. To these 3, the things were just animals, because they surely weren't humans. Thus, they don't matter. Period.
That's my view anyway. And i'm not a vegetarian or PETA supporter either.
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Dire Lemming
First Post
The fact is, we acted perfectly naturally defending ourselves from the creatures we met force with force, and we won. Two fled and two were disabled. Enko made it perfectly clear what his intentions were and yet everyone deliberately ignored him despite his being the only spirit talker in the party. They sadistically murdered a helpless creature that was no threat to them whatsoever for no purpose whatsoever other than that they wanted it dead. There is no way to compare it to killing for survival. Finally, it was obviously human-like since it walked upright, wore clothes, used tools, and spoke.
Zurai
First Post
Dire Lemming said:
Both points you make here are mis-founded at best.
First, Artemisia was not sadistic towards the creature. She didn't torture it, she didn't taunt it, she didn't take any joy from its suffering. In fact, leaving it alone would have been more sadistic, because it would have been in pain for who knows how long until it bled out or something came and ate it.
Second, you're the only one who seems to think the creatures posed no threat to the group, which is ironic since you're the only one who took wound damage. Apparently I need to up the CR of the encounters
![:]](http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png "Devious :]")
Zurai
First Post
Oh, for the record, I'm fine with the level of discourse so far, but try not to get any more heated than it is right now. Remember, the point is to have fun. I have no objections whatsoever to what's going on in the IC thread on either side of the coin. It adds character to the group and I'm actually happy that there's some ethical debate going on.
Dire Lemming
First Post
It's clear that my interpretation of the direction this game is meant to go is quite different from everyone elses. I figured this game would be less about adventurers killing evil, and more about explorers exploring and finding new amazing things. If I'd known that the only value Enko would have to the party was to help them get back to killing faster I would have made a fighter. If nothing else I could have said, "If you try to kill it, I'll beat the tar out of you." Rather than just "If you kill it, I'll be very very upset, but it's not like you care about how I feel." :\
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Zurai
First Post
OK, now you're over-reacting.
For one thing, you've (the party as a whole, but you're part of that) missed several "exploration" clues. Including ones I had thought were pretty blatantly obvious.
For another, this is actually the third encounter the group has had. The first two resolved more or less peacefully.
For a third, there isn't a "direction this game is meant to go". I thought I'd made that pretty clear from the start.
For one thing, you've (the party as a whole, but you're part of that) missed several "exploration" clues. Including ones I had thought were pretty blatantly obvious.
For another, this is actually the third encounter the group has had. The first two resolved more or less peacefully.
For a third, there isn't a "direction this game is meant to go". I thought I'd made that pretty clear from the start.
Dire Lemming
First Post
Ok, I'm sorry... I shouldn't have said that that way. All I know is, I don't enjoy playing helpless characters. I don't need a game for that. I made this character that had hardly any skills in inflicting violence because I thought that he'd actually have a purpose in this game that was more than just a healstick. The fact that everyone in the party and the DM think that his entire way of thinking is indisputably wrong, strongly contradicts that belief.
