D&D General Maybe I was ALWAYs playing 4e... even in 2e

[Eric V]

It's theater like healing spells in potions are in fiction. They get you back to fighting form regardless.

The game is so much better once you accept it's a game with game elements that run in the background instead of simulations of the fictional world.

Amen.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

The easiest way to do that in the system as it is would be just to run a combat with a few minions.

For my ambitions even that would be too much effort. I would like these "skirmishes" to be resolved in at most two rolls per person, with the only real (tactical) choice being whether to expend useful resources to spare yourself or someone else the consequences of a poor roll (which would generally be a surge, HP, or some kind of mild lingering condition, if such can be made to work, e.g. via the disease track.) The idea being, these are meant to be really, REALLY fast--resolved in just a few minutes--but still weighty enough to have long-term consequences.

One would use skirmish rules for situations like:
1. Infiltrating an enemy stronghold where there are many weak guards, which may be cleared out slowly and methodically (but at cost), or left alone at the risk of allowing reinforcements for the later, major confrontations with the leadership
2. Dealing with minor wild animal threats in nature. Most animals don't attack people unless they're desperate or mentally unsound (e.g. rabies), so these fights should not be tough, but they can add pressure or work as a minor time and resource cost linked to a Skill Challenge
3. Any situation where, sort of as you say, one would expect genuinely every enemy to qualify as a minion or mook. E.g. the "clear out the low-level kobold warren" stuff or fighting, I dunno, the occasional gaggle of giant bees at the edges of a giant beehive or something.
4. Situations where the party doesn't strictly care about defeating opponents, just getting away or getting past them. E.g. escorting someone through dangerous spaces, ferrying a valuable item and fending off people trying to steal it, etc. This again demonstrates how these rules would work in tandem with the Skill Challenge rules, since there could easily be interplay between the two.

The overall idea is just to offer a mechanical representation of these "small" fights, the ones that don't represent a tactical challenge but that can still represent a strategic or logistical one.

 

[pemerton]

One would use skirmish rules for situations like:
1. Infiltrating an enemy stronghold where there are many weak guards, which may be cleared out slowly and methodically (but at cost), or left alone at the risk of allowing reinforcements for the later, major confrontations with the leadership
2. Dealing with minor wild animal threats in nature.

To me, these are both skill challenges.

Here's a post with examples of the first:

Although the Soul Abattoir is described in very general terms in the Underdark book, little detail is given. I located it at the end of icy tunnels running through the Shadowdark, on the far shore of the Soul Slough into which flows Lathan, the River of Souls. The "liquid souls" flowed under the ice and stone to the icy, Vault-of-the-Drow-style cavern containing the Soul Abattoir. The Abattoir itself was a series of buildings into which souls "flowed" in a fashion analogous to rivers. Inside the buildings the streams of souls were directed through Torog's various machines, which extracted soul energy from by way of torture, converting that energy into "darkspikes" from which Torog could then draw power by driving them into his body.

The destruction of the Soul Abattoir was run mostly as a skill challenge, but with a combat a little over halfway through (and some of this is reposted from other threads):

• The entrance to the Soul Abattoir, at which the PCs had arrived, was an icy tunnel floor, ending at a cliff overlooking the cavern - the river of souls was flowing some way beneath the ice, and flowed out from the base of the entrance cliff into Torog's various machines;
  
  
• The drow sorcerer and tiefling paladin flew to the bottom of the cliff, where the paladin blew his Fire Horn to render the ice more susceptible to heat, while the drow cast Flame Spiral to melt some of the ice, and then cast Wall of Water to block the flow of souls (check-wise, this was an Arcana check by the player of the drow, with a buff from the melting of the ice and use of the wall);
  
  
• The paladin and invoker then headed to the largest building, at the other end of the cavern, while the cleric-ranger on his flying carpet provided archery cover and the sorcerer flew above them maintaining concentration on his wall spell (check-wise, this was an Acro check for the archer and the sorcerer, and an Intimidate check from the paladin assisted by the invoker to make their way through Torog's minions);
  
  
• Once they got to the far building, the paladin and invoker sought the intervention of the Raven Queen to redirect the flow of souls directly to the Shadowfell rather than via Torog's infernal machines (one failed and one successful Religion check; the failure led to damage from a combination of psychic and necrotic energies generated by the suffering souls);
  
  
• Meanwhile, with the flow of souls stopped, the fighter fought his way through the other (lesser) buildings, destroying the machinery inside them (Athletic check buffed by expenditure of a close burst encounter power to fight through the minions from building to building, and Dungeoneering to wreck the machinery);
  
  
• When the PCs had all regrouped at the furthest (and most important) building resolution then switched from skill challenge mode to tactical combat mode, as they stormed the building and fought with Torog's shrivers plus a death titan;
  
  
• After the (very challenging) fight, during which the last machine was turned off by the sorcerer (the player made a successful Thievery check as a standard action once the PCs had finally fought their way along the central gantry that ran above the pool of souls), the skill challenge then resumed as the Soul Abattoir itself started to collapse;
  
  
• The ranger and sorcerer flew out of the cavern (successful Acro checks) while the paladin ran out beneath them, but was struck by falling rocks (failed Aths check, making the 3-person group check a success altogether as a majority succeeded, but costing the paladin damage for the failure);
  
  
• The fighter shielded the invoker (Endurance check) as the latter held off the powerful soul energy while the others made their escape (Religion check);
  
  
• The invoker noticed that Vecna was trying to take control of the soul energy via the invoker's imp familiar that has the Eye of Vecna implanted in it (as GM, I had decided that this was the moment when Vecna would try and steal the souls for himself; mechanically I asked the player to make an Insight check, which was successful);
  
  
• The invoker, having to choose between two of his patrons (he is a very pluralist divine PC) stopped Vecna redirecting the souls away from the Raven Queen, making sure that they flowed to her instead (in play, at this point I asked the player whether his PC - who at this point still had the erupting soul energy under his mystical control - whether he was going to let the souls flow to Vecna, or rather direct them to the Raven Queen; the player though for probably about 20 seconds, and then replied "The Raven Queen"; I decided that, on the basis of the earlier Religion check with no further check required, and I also decided that Vecna in anger shut down the offending imp via his Eye);
  
  
• The invoker and fighter then ran out of the collapsing cavern behind their companions, the invoker being shielded from falling rocks by the burly dwarf fighter (Athletics checks, with the fighter doing well enough to grant an "aid another" bonus to the invoker, so from memory neither took any damage).

[/QUOTE

 

[EzekielRaiden]

To me, these are both skill challenges.

Here's a post with examples of the first:

Skill challenges also work for these, but your example is much more ornate than I'm thinking of. These skirmishes would take the place of Wandering Monster table results, for example. Or, in the case of the infiltration, a Skill Challenge would normally be used for avoiding any combat at all, with (as you showed in your example) failed rolls resulting in damage, lost surges, etc., using the character's combat powers for qualitative bonuses and gaining an edge. A Skirmish would invert this process: skill rolls could potentially be used to gain a combat edge, whereas actual combat powers would take center stage. The use of a daily power could save an ally from suffering the consequences of a bad roll, for example, since that is a hefty price in this context. One key difference is that a Skirmish would have to go really, REALLY poorly to result in serious problems, because the whole point is that they are low-stakes conflicts in the moment but consequential in the long term. Old school play frequently throws fights at the players that are extremely unlikely to kill anyone or even beat them back, but which chip away at resources.

The whole thing is super high concept because I lack the design chops to actually make it happen. It could very well end up that my aspirations are foolish, and that just a very minor extension of Skill Challenges to include more explicitly HP-and-AC combat would totally suffice. But where I'm standing right now, I think such rules would be better if they were distinct, even if there are similarities. (E.g.

 

[Undrave]

Old school play frequently throws fights at the players that are extremely unlikely to kill anyone or even beat them back, but which chip away at resources.

I think it's just not the sort of game 4e is. Skirmishes don't really accomplish much... Philosophically speaking it's just not the sort of things 4e cares about.

If you want to just drain surges you could handle them like a Trap Encounter, just have opposing rolls from the combatants and if the PC lose they lose a healing surge.

 

[James Gasik]

I think it was wights or wraiths in 4e, in a game I was playing in, we ran into a pack of these things, and each hit drained a healing surge. My Fighter ran out of surges as a result and we were left unsure of how to proceed, since I was the Defender and the party had no way to heal me.

I spent the rest of the session using a minor action Intimidate utility (-5 to all enemies within range to attack anyone other than me) and using full defense, much to the annoyance of the DM, since I had an Action Point ability that increased my defenses by 4 for a round as well.

The Cleric had an encounter that was an AoE daze, so there was usually an opportunity to use my mostly-useless Dragonfear to mark a bunch of enemies as well. It was rough, but we somehow managed to scrape by.

The DM swore off using such enemies again, since he found the combats very frustrating when I was forced to turn into a walking fortress.

 

[Gradine]

They are imaginary.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

It's theater like healing spells in potions are in fiction. They get you back to fighting form regardless.

The game is so much better once you accept it's a game with game elements that run in the background instead of simulations of the fictional world.

No thanks. Strangely enough I want the game elements actually be connected to the fiction. Like what you seriously suggest? PC cast healing spells and drink potions mechanically, because they are missing hit points, but in the fiction they actually do not do those things, as they're fine?

 

[pemerton]

No thanks. Strangely enough I want the game elements actually be connected to the fiction. Like what you seriously suggest? PC cast healing spells and drink potions mechanically, because they are missing hit points, but in the fiction they actually do not do those things, as they're fine?

Are we still talking about 4e?

If so, then Healing Word, Inspiring Word, Majestic Word, Word of Vigour - these are not "healing spells", they are words spoken infused with divine power, or sheer inspiration, or arcane song. And so they lift spirits, restore vigour, allow those spoken to to go on. Whether this is imagined, in the fiction, as involving any literal healing or not seems a matter for the individual table. There is no need to suppose that hit point loss corresponds to wounding, and hit point restoration to literal healing, in order for these abilities to make sense.

Healing potions have not been a big part of my 4e experience, so I can't comment on them as confidently, but I imagine some sort of magically restorative tonic need not be interpreted as literally closing wounds or knitting bones.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Are we still talking about 4e?

No... Maybe? I was thinking mostly 5e, but yes, you're correct, 4e is somewhat different. And I didn't like how it handles this as it makes the HP even more nebulous (and that's the wrong direction for my liking YMMV,) not that the HP aren't a bit of a mess in every edition.

If so, then Healing Word, Inspiring Word, Majestic Word, Word of Vigour - these are not "healing spells", they are words spoken infused with divine power, or sheer inspiration, or arcane song. And so they lift spirits, restore vigour, allow those spoken to to go on. Whether this is imagined, in the fiction, as involving any literal healing or not seems a matter for the individual table. There is no need to suppose that hit point loss corresponds to wounding, and hit point restoration to literal healing, in order for these abilities to make sense.

Healing potions have not been a big part of my 4e experience, so I can't comment on them as confidently, but I imagine some sort of magically restorative tonic need not be interpreted as literally closing wounds or knitting bones.

I'd argue that healing word is explicitly healing as are healing potions and some other spells that are so flavoured. In any case, in the narrative the there must be some in-fiction indication of missing HP or otherwise there is no in-character justification for use of HP replenishing things. There must also be some in-character understanding of how these HP restoring things help.

"Plot armour" by definition is not something the characters in the setting can be aware of, nor something that can be replenished via in-fiction resources. That's the crux of my objection.