(OOC) Emerald City Knights

[Thanee]

Could you guys take this to a more appropriate venue?

Sorry!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Insight]

"Brutally hard time" is an appropriate phrasing. Not only does it mean autofailing, but the effect is also maximized.

For example; Fort based afflictions will always have 3rd degree of effects (pretty much removing you from a fight).

Actually, according to p. 179 on Constructs, it's much worse. Kid Bionic would either have no Str and Agi OR no Int and Pre. I would have to buy those back from -5. I would probably go with the Int/Pre option, but I am going to lose some significant points. It does verify that constructs do not have Fort defense and are not affected by effects that target Fort (unless it specifically affects objects). I suppose that is implying that they have to purchase Immunity 30 - all Fortitude effects.

I should have read that section on Constructs first. Oh well. Live and learn.

I have edited Kid Bionic for all of the Construct stuff and reduced things accordingly. Here is the latest version. Kid Bionic is still essentially the same, but I had to drop a lot of the "nice to have" stuff for points reasons.

Reason for choosing Int/Pre to drop instead of Str/Agi: Besides the obvious - he's a martial artist sort - it makes sense to me that he is still adapting to "life" as a cybernetic construct. He struggles to interact with others (hence the PRE of -2) and to remember his past (INT -1). My plan is to buy those back to at least 0 with advancement.

Also, I assume that Constructs do not age. I have removed the Immunity to Aging for that reason.

EDIT: I just noticed a bit of a conflict within the Construct description (p. 179). It says that Constructs are immune to all Fortitude effects except those targeting objects and then it requires you to take Immunity 30 - all Fortitude effects. If you took the Immunity, wouldn't you just be immune to all Fortitude effects, regardless of whether the effect can harm objects? That part doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Shayuri]

Basically, it's possible to buy a power that affects Fort, like Weaken, and get a +1/rank Extra that allows it to affect things that have that Immunity.

It's a bit weird, I know. But otherwise you couldn't make things like acids or disintegrator rays or whatnot.

It's not available to ANY power that affects Fort...just ones the GM specifically allows it for. Weaken Toughness is the classic example. And yeah, I think Aging would generally be considered a Fort-based effect, so the 30 pointer should cover it.

 

[Walking Dad]

Basically, it's possible to buy a power that affects Fort, like Weaken, and get a +1/rank Extra that allows it to affect things that have that Immunity.

Can you give page and number of that rule??? Ignoring a 30 pp immunity is countered by a +1extra?

I actually think buying the immunity doesn't require to be an object. Nor does Will or Toughness Immunity.

 

[Insight]

Can you give page and number of that rule??? Ignoring a 30 pp immunity is countered by a +1extra?

I actually think buying the immunity doesn't require to be an object. Nor does Will or Toughness Immunity.

That cannot be the case. If it was, every construct would be absolutely destroyed with that power, with no chance to stop it. Constructs do not have Fort defense. They would be completely powerless to defend themselves against such a power. There's no other effect in the book that does not allow a defense.

I could see allowing such an effect to work against non-sentient objects, like doors, bulldozers, and cars, but not against enemy characters or player characters. Maybe you make it target Will defense or something. You cannot let them target something that doesn't exist. Constructs CANNOT buy Stamina or Fort defense.

 

[Shayuri]

Well, I admit, the Extra IS bought as "affects objects."

But that does let them affect constructs too. I suppose there is a difference between being immune to all Fort effects and being an object/construct.

It's right there though, under the Weaken entry in the 3rd Edition Handbook.

Hmm. Although, on rereading, it does specify "inanimate" objects, which would seem to exclude constructs.

But it's exceedingly odd that, say, an acid blast that weakens a steel door wouldn't work on a robot... Oh well. Hardly the only weird spot in the rules, I suppose.

 

[Thanee]

That's because it is a heroic robot, no wait, a super-heroic robot, even!

Bye
Thanee

 

[hero4hire]

Unfortunately Affects Objects does Affect Animate Constructs with Immune to Fort. This was actually still a problem back in 2e. There are many threads devoted on how to fix it over at ATT because most find it a bit over the top when playing a construct character. The one solution I have used as a houserule has been allowing a Toughness or a Dodge save (depending on the descriptor) in place of autofailing. It allows Robots to be affected by Disintegration attacks and the like without getting "pwned".

 

[Thanee]

But isn't that mostly a power design problem?

Attacks like Disintegrate should target Toughness not Fortitude, because objects have no Fortitude.

Fortitude is for diseases and such.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Insight]

Unfortunately Affects Objects does Affect Animate Constructs with Immune to Fort. This was actually still a problem back in 2e. There are many threads devoted on how to fix it over at ATT because most find it a bit over the top when playing a construct character. The one solution I have used as a houserule has been allowing a Toughness or a Dodge save (depending on the descriptor) in place of autofailing. It allows Robots to be affected by Disintegration attacks and the like without getting "pwned".

The main problem with the existence of this modifier is that no other effect in the rules can target things that have no defense. Constructs by rule have no way to avoid the damage. Even if you allow a Dodge against the "disintegration ray", the Construct will eventually get hit and completely destroyed by it.

If someone shoots a Disintegration Ray at a normal character, that characters gets a Dodge and a Fort defense. So, are you saying that a Construct in this case would get a Dodge and apply Toughness to such a power? That seems to defeat the purpose of the Weaken effect, but what else can you do? No power should be an auto "I WIN" button.

By RAW, someone could take Weaken Toughness, Ranged - Perception, Affects Objects, and Kid Bionic would not even get ANY defense! He would lose (Ranks / 2) Toughness every round and evenually be knocked out (probably in 2 rounds).