Rogue powers, sneak attack and weapon selection

[keterys]

One of the KotS cleric powers gives combat advantage to an ally. I think it was an encounter level 3.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

Yes. Virtually noone is immune to sneak attacks AND it can be used whenever he has combat advantage.

Because even if noone is immune to sneak attacks, if combat advantage were as situational as in 3E, I wouldn't think that was very good.

You're absolutely right. That said, there are a few preview powers that grant combat advantage in some way or another. Combine that with powers that grat status afflications, and it seems like there's lots of potential for Combat Advantage to happen.

That said, we won't really know until lots of us are playing the game and testing it ourselves.

 

[Nikodemus]

Another factor in this equation is that 4E involves a lot more movement than previous editions. Because the battlefield is more dynamic, flanking occurs more frequently, at least, it has in the demos which I have run. If a rogue is in a melee heavy party, like the one from the KotS, they should have no problem setting up frequent flank attacks.

 

[Ian O'Rourke]

I've seen the odd power apply Combat Advantage to a foe as well - one of the Warlord Paragon path ones I think.

 

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

Well, unless shuriken are "light blades" looks like this won't be possible either (or are you referring to 3.x)?

I'm not saying you should be able to sneak attack with any weapon (I never did think sneak attacks with greatswords/falchions/etc made much sense), I don't see why saps/clubs, heck even shortbows, aren't allowed.

Meh, anytime you have someone that provides you with a combat advantage, you should be able to apply sneak attack. If you can hit them in combat in the first place, you can hit them harder and more accurately when they're at a disadvantage. If you can sneak attack a dragon at all with a dagger, or use a dagger effectively against people who are using superior weapons in combat, limiting sneak attack to certain weapons isn't because of realism, it's just arbitrary. If there is a balance issue resulting from a desire to make fighting with a dagger work, then you do something with the math to make it fit and say, "Hey it's a balance issue, so you do less sneak attack damage with higher base damage weapons."

All the arguments about history and comparing the DND greatsword to historical greatswords (while neglecting the fact that the DND falchion is specifically not a historical falchion) or weapon length/space and crap aren't used except when someone doesn't like something, but wants to make it seem like there is an actual reason that their personal preference should be hardcoded into the rules to limit the options of others. It's the same when someone doesn't like two-weapon fighting or multiclassing. Real world examples and concepts that are ignored through the entire DND system or are already accounted for in another way by the system suddenly become important in regard to sneak attack, two-weapon fighting or whatever.

 

[Vael]

IIRC, there are feats to expand the list of sneak attackable weapons. There was a mention on a staff blog.

 

[Stalker0]

"Hey it's a balance issue, so you do less sneak attack damage with higher base damage weapons."

Nailed it in one. Just add a clause in the sneak attack entry that if you attack with a nonlight blade you deal 1d6 less points of sneak attack damage. It would still be optimal in general to use a light blade but at least you can do it.

 

[Blackeagle]

Well, the claim was made that sneak attack being more limited than in 3E was okay because you could do it more often. I'm just wondering whether that second bit actually holds.

Besides the stuff other people have mentioned, I've heard it said that conditions will be less debilitating than 3e, but a lot easier to impose. So the list of conditions that give combat advantage may not be much longer than 3e, but they'll probably come up a lot more often.

 

[PeterWeller]

He wouldn't mind breaking a few bones, but I don't see him as the type to pull a knife/sword on someone (except in a life or death situation).

So, like in 99% of D&D fights?

Note, I agree that one should be able to sneak attack with a sap.

 

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

IIRC, there are feats to expand the list of sneak attackable weapons. There was a mention on a staff blog.

I hope you're right, but after looking through the blogs agina, the only mention I found in a staff blog was this one by Scott Rouse (which which also mentions the issue of having powers to use with other weapons):

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15222191&postcount=5

"Earlier in the presentation and then again to Xath, I told a story of a round of playtest combat where my Eladrin Rogue used a move action, per encounter power "Fey Step" to flank a goblin boss, I then spent my action point, to get a standard action to use a daily power attack that does 3d8+6 damage (plus the 2d6 for Sneak Attack). My attack roll confirms a hit and I rolled a total of 36 points of damage.

Me, Xath, and Andy Collins, then went on to talk about things like multi-classing and class weapons options. The rogue came up again with a discussion about light blades. Andy said something to the effect, rogues use light blades and I said well mine uses a longsword just fine because Eladrins have weapons proficiency with the longsword as a racial ability. Andy then proceeds to tell me "well then none of your rogue powers will work as they all key off the light blade". What? I then furiously open a PDF of my PHB and there it was, the obvious truth: "Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade". I was cheating. How can this be? My DM never told me! I don't rember that in the rules document. I even accepted that +1 longsword from a NPC that gives me a healing surge every time I drop an undead foe to 0 HP and now I can't use it. Well, our paladin has a really nice sword now."