D&D 5E (2024) Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.

[CapnZapp]

I don’t know, what play patterns are you looking for?

5E14 has absolutely zero items or class features that increase sneak damage. Despite this very clearly being very far from game-breaking; the 5e14 rogue was never in contention for "most game-breaking efficient killer" or even close. Why is this particular build dimension so very strictly throttled when almost no other build dimension are?

There's a rule that limits attribute scores to 20. Until you can exceed it.
There's a rule that limits attunement slots to three. Until you can exceed it.
And so on and so on.

But gaining more sneak attack dice? Or increasing the size of them? Or even getting a reliable internal way of self-generating your second sneak attack in a turn* (without relying on monsters fleeing or your wizard casting Haste)?
*) I would much prefer the game design to focus on one single attack to differentiate the Rogue from Fighters and other classes.

Absolute total deadening silence from official sources.

Why is that?

 

[CapnZapp]

Or, here is an idea.

drop subclasses,
make those abilities into feats/half-feats and add extra feat slot at levels 3,6,10,14.

I think you underestimate the ease of use the "package" that is the subclass brings. It makes the game appear simpler... and for newcomers it definitely is simpler. It brings character identity ("so you played a battlemaster too? sweet?") and boils down that bundle of abilities to a single word.

In other words, technically you're right but I would say it's an advanced/experienced viewpoint.

What I'm after specifically is to create a new big decision point and have that happen at a high-ish level (such as perhaps level 10 or 14). With the specific aim to put spotlight on high-level play; drawing attention to the need for much better design support of those levels and stop having them be an afterthought.

If there was much more discussion around a choice every player (that doesn't stop playing before this point) it would shine a light on the mechanics of high-level abilities that I believe would be good for the game and for those of us who want WotC to better support high levels.

 

[CapnZapp]

What about a feat: rogue initiate. +1 dex. +1d6 sneak attack damage.

Oh, the solutions aren't necessarily very hard to come up with.

Getting the WotC devs to put some solutions in official books apparently is.

Though thanks!

 

[CapnZapp]

I would have liked universal subclasses at 3, 6, 10, 14.
I was sad to see that go.

Just one subclass at 3rd and one at 12th, say, (so two subclasses each 9 levels "long") would have immensely enriched the charbuild space.

And, as stated, would put a spotlight on that 12th level decision, which would have helped steering attention to the quality of high level class features.

 

[CapnZapp]

Rogues are melee and ranged.

All the other builds look like they are melee only. Which should do a little more damage.

You do realize that this makes building a melee rogue a hopeless choice.

(The melee rogue should have available choices to increase sneak damage that can't be used at range)

 

[Charlaquin]

5E14 has absolutely zero items or class features that increase sneak damage. Despite this very clearly being very far from game-breaking; the 5e14 rogue was never in contention for "most game-breaking efficient killer" or even close. Why is this particular build dimension so very strictly throttled when almost no other build dimension are?

There's a rule that limits attribute scores to 20. Until you can exceed it.
There's a rule that limits attunement slots to three. Until you can exceed it.
And so on and so on.

But gaining more sneak attack dice? Or increasing the size of them? Or even getting a reliable internal way of self-generating your second sneak attack in a turn* (without relying on monsters fleeing or your wizard casting Haste)?
*) I would much prefer the game design to focus on one single attack to differentiate the Rogue from Fighters and other classes.

Absolute total deadening silence from official sources.

Why is that?

That isn’t an answer to my question at all. I gather you’d like there to be ways to increase sneak attack damage, but I fail to see how that has anything to do with the comment of mine you responded to.

 

[CapnZapp]

Like Death strike bracers or lesser truedeath crystals & Greater truedeath Crystals ? Unfortunately I don't see the need for such things until wotc is willing to make some changes. Changes that make those an option would however do a lot of good for encounter/adventure design by adjusting how the mere threat of some monsters creates risk.

Let's not bring homebrew into this.

I want WotC to include official avenues for the player who wants to increase sneak damage, especially on melee rogue builds. If these force you to give up or reduce other strengths of the Rogue class such as versatility or skillmonkeyism, fair enough.

 

[Horwath]

I'm not looking for a solution where ALL rogues do more damage, because I'm not bitching "rogues don't do enough damage".

I'm bitching "SOME rogues don't do enough damage". The ones that are willing to focus on damage.

So give us a damage focus. Don't give us a free bonus. That's not a choice to "focus".

As a thought experiment:

How would a rogue class look like if it got a sneak die every level?

If we begin by assuming this rogue would be willing to give up everything else, would that be viable?

Remember, in the end it's "only" damage. Dealing damage isn't what derails campaigns.

I would suspect that a 20d6 Rogue wouldn't be much out of place at 20th level. If we additionally say sneak damage is once a round and not once a turn, the class shouldn't have to give up much at all.

Assassin rogue can get +1d6 sneak attack at levels 3,6,10,14,18 in addition to it's 3rd level features.
That would be the "damage rogue".

 

[mellored]

You do realize that this makes building a melee rogue a hopeless choice.

(The melee rogue should have available choices to increase sneak damage that can't be used at range)

Attack, Nick, and bonus action run away. Slightly more damage than bonus action Hide and Attack.

And note that Rogues don't get hand crossbows.

Definitely better than the old melee rogue, but yea. I expect most Rogues to be ranged most of the time.

 

[tetrasodium]

Let's not bring homebrew into this.

I want WotC to include official avenues for the player who wants to increase sneak damage, especially on melee rogue builds. If these force you to give up or reduce other strengths of the Rogue class such as versatility or skillmonkeyism, fair enough.

Those were official items I linked to pages that described the items in MiC because it's been several years and because wotc literally have all of them to the base class as permanent at will things.

There is no room for sneak attack improving items because the ua rogue is already a very powerful class that probably even has it too good with some of its new abilities... For that reason I expect wotc will probably jump right on filling the request for sneak attack improving magic items as a mundane readily available phb item or something