D&D General The Crab Bucket Fallacy

[FrogReaver]

I honestly think the effort to make every class as SAD as possible has worked to D&D's detriment. Characters become so much more samey.

I don't see why the combat oriented choices wouldn't be better handled 99% by class/subclass than MAD.

IMO, if anything classes or subclasses should more regularly get +Attributes baked into their class progression.

Sameyness can be eliminated by introducing a few variant class features as choices, probably in a subsequent book.

 

[FrogReaver]

And...
I am seventh level and did 54 points of damage in a single round. Granted, it was great rolling, but do I need to do more? Do I have to do more than the paladin? Do I always have to beat the ranger? The warlock? The bard? I would love, just love, for one time, for someone to post a video of their game, of three to four sessions, just to see how much that +1 or +2 is needed. I am willing to bet it's rarer than people believe.

You are not losing "a lot" of damage. In fact, the weapon you choose has the same or greater impact on your damage than that +1.

ASI complaints ignored: all the cool racial feats, and the ability to get to dive deeper into a culture you want to explore as a player. Also, you get additional points in a skill that rounds out your character better. And, you get to choose skills that help show the culture you're trying to roleplay.

But no. The "I have to have this, and it's not fair" crowd insisted.

Just once... just once... I would like to see a complaint that didn't involve someone wanting something that made their character stronger. But that never happens. Almost every change is an increase in power, which is why people that complain are often called powergamers or min/maxers.

Imagine the outcry if this happened: All cantrips should only do 1d4 damage, this way martial classes always do more damage - you know, since that's what they specialize in. The spellcasters have other things like fly and invisibility that makes them equal in the long run.

Have you ever seen that? Probably not. The reason is the people that complain are boxed in by needing that extra +1, or needing to be able to do the best damage, have the best AC, technically, to be great at all pillars. For them, being ok at a pillar is not enough. For them, for reasons I can't understand, it ruins their immersion.

So, the numbers don't lie. +1 attack and +1 damage is usually about a 20% increase in individual damage output. Which is probably a little over 5% in team damage output (Martials tend to make up a larger portion than casters). So I 100% agree, it's likely going to make little to no difference in the individual encounters or adventuring day.

That said, if you don't increase Str/Dex then you barely outperform a Wizard's cantrips - which as just stated probably won't change the battle's outcome, but will really hurt your spotlight. Which I guess brings us to the real reason to increase Str/Dex - to stay competent enough at combat so that you keep some spotlight there.

 

[Aldarc]

I disagree. It just matters which sort of mechanics best reflect the concept, and warlock mechanics better reflect the fluff of the sorcerer than the actual sorcerer mechanics do.

This is always an interesting litmus test. If you switched the names and flavor text of two classes, could someone tell the difference? For some classes, I imagine it would be pretty difficult.

 

[Minigiant]

When you figure out what a wizard does with Str let me know.

Shield could based on Str as you must hold it up with your fingers.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

1 point in up to about 4 skills you use once per session vs 1 point in something you use multiple times per round when your life is on the line.

To be fair, it is not fair to just compare how often you roll. One attack roll is not gonna resolve the situation, but one stealth, deception, or persuasions roll might completely bypass the entire fight.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Spellbook
You have a spellbook that you may use as your spellcasting focus. It contains all the spells you have studied and mastered including all sorcerer cantrips and the Detect Magic and Comprehend Languages spells. Any spell in this book may be cast by you as a ritual, and at the end of any long rest you may choose to exchange any spell you know for one in your spellbook.

You may want to change this to “any number of spells you know” otherwise the wizard can only replace one spell per long rest.

 

[FrozenNorth]

To be fair, it is not fair to just compare how often you roll. One attack roll is not gonna resolve the situation, but one stealth, deception, or persuasions roll might completely bypass the entire fight.

If that’s the case, wouldn’t the roll be attempted by the character that has the greatest chance of success? On Int rolls, the wizard or artificer, on Wis rolls, the cleric or druid, and on Cha rolls, the sorcerer, warlock or paladin? Or the Rogue or Bard, whose expertise can make up for a lower stat?

In large parties (5 or 6 PCs), the problem isn’t that a skill isn’t covered, it’s often that you have 2 or 3 people trained in the skill.

Meanwhile, a Str Fighter excels at Athletics (except in the many cases where they can be replaced by Acrobatics checks). And the Dex fighter is slightly better off with more skills, but still yends to fall behind the Dex primary classes (rogues get more skills and expertise, rangers get more skills, spells and class features).

 

[Crimson Longinus]

If that’s the case, wouldn’t the roll be attempted by the character that has the greatest chance of success? On Int rolls, the wizard or artificer, on Wis rolls, the cleric or druid, and on Cha rolls, the sorcerer, warlock or paladin? Or the Rogue or Bard, whose expertise can make up for a lower stat?

In large parties (5 or 6 PCs), the problem isn’t that a skill isn’t covered, it’s often that you have 2 or 3 people trained in the skill.

Meanwhile, a Str Fighter excels at Athletics (except in the many cases where they can be replaced by Acrobatics checks). And the Dex fighter is slightly better off with more skills, but still yends to fall behind the Dex primary classes (rogues get more skills and expertise, rangers get more skills, spells and class features).

Sometimes the situation dictates who has to roll and sometimes all characters have to. But yeah, you made perfectly valid points and I don't contest that generally trading your main stat for a small boost in some skills is a rather bad deal. I just wanted to point out that frequency of rolling is not a good way to compare the usefulness, as a single skill roll often can achieve more than a single attack roll.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Sometimes the situation dictates who has to roll and sometimes all characters have to. But yeah, you made perfectly valid points and I don't contest that generally trading your main stat for a small boost in some skills is a rather bad deal. I just wanted to point out that frequency of rolling is not a good way to compare the usefulness, as a single skill roll often can achieve more than a single attack roll.

Fair, but if we mainly consider situations where you are required to roll even if you are not the best at a skill (either because only you can roll for in game reasons or because everyone is rolling), we are talking about pretty infrequent occurrences.

 

[Minigiant]

Sometimes the situation dictates who has to roll and sometimes all characters have to. But yeah, you made perfectly valid points and I don't contest that generally trading your main stat for a small boost in some skills is a rather bad deal. I just wanted to point out that frequency of rolling is not a good way to compare the usefulness, as a single skill roll often can achieve more than a single attack roll.

The issue is that noncombat rolls in 5e are single checks by default in 5e.

4 party member= 4 primary scores= 4 members will be default for checks.

And the 5e rules for siding is super permissive. And its subsystems like language and exploration are easily overcome with magic.

4e fixed this with skill challenges and multiple check. EVERYONE ROLLs every Time anything important happens.