D&D 5E Can thrown weapons be used for sneak attack damage?

[Athinar]

I am asking D&D Team via Email but from the answer back in 2014 from Twitter was

Frank Foulis @darthJerod
@MikeMearls Can thrown weapons be used for sneak attack damage? Seems to go against the qualifiers of sneak attack being Ranged-Finesse
Mike Mearls @MikeMearls
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@darthJerod yes, they can. basically, as a DM feel free to let the rogue sneak attack with anything that deals a d6 or less
4:25 PM - 25 Jul 2014


Zoltar commented on Sneak attack d6.
in response to zoltar:
@darthJerod yes, they can. basically, as a DM feel free to let the rogue sneak attack with anything that deals a d6 or less — Mike Mearls @MikeMearls) July 25, 2014
If you read the tweet date is one of the first tweet about 5e, when Master Mike was the only designer that answer rule questions. (Mike and Jeremy are the lead designers as you can read in PHB)
Now Master Jeremy is the official Rules Sage and you can ask to him at @JeremyECrawford on twitter
or ask to D&D Team at sageadvice@wizards.com
My advice is to follow Master Mike answer and find your way outside the Mud Forest.


Not out of thin air but from common sense and RAW to boot

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...the-Ranged-Weapon-30-feet/page9#ixzz3SuQkdvNs

 

[Shiroiken]

RAW would say no. RAI appears so say yes.

Normally I use RAI over RAW, but in this case I would not allow it as a DM (personal preference). Your DM may vary. If you are a DM, just make sure you're consistent.

 

[Kikuras]

I'm really not seeing a light hammer or even a javelin as being used to 'strike subtly'. The dagger, as a finesse weapon, can be thrown and used for sneak attack without question.

Is it a matter of flavor or is it a matter of trying to get the extra damage? If it's flavor based, 'reshape' the dagger into whatever form character needs to keep flavor (throwing axe, not a hand axe, might do 1d4 and be a finesse weapon). If it's about the damage, then I'd tell whoever to take their head out of their... anyway, just my thoughts.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Of course, by RAW, you can sneak attack with a thrown weapon if that weapon is a dagger.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

You can sneak attack with ranged weapons. Whether it is allowed by RAW depends whether you consider a thrown weapon to be a "ranged weapon". Our group decided that anything that isn't used in melee is a ranged weapon. This seemed pretty logical to us. There is a category of weapons called "ranged weapons" in the equipment section but the rules don't explicitly say that ONLY weapons on that list are ranged weapons. The english definition of "ranged" seems to apply in this situation. In fact, the description of thrown weapons implies they become ranged weapons when they are being thrown.

Plus, none of the thrown weapons do more damage than a bow, which can be used for a sneak attack. So, it doesn't appear to create any balance issues.

The only thing this rule would change is whether or not you could play a strength-based rogue who threw weapons at people for sneak attacks. Which might be a cool character and I don't see it being overpowered or particularly horrible in terms of story.

 

[Kikuras]

You can sneak attack with ranged weapons. Whether it is allowed by RAW depends whether you consider a thrown weapon to be a "ranged weapon". Our group decided that anything that isn't used in melee is a ranged weapon. This seemed pretty logical to us. There is a category of weapons called "ranged weapons" in the equipment section but the rules don't explicitly say that ONLY weapons on that list are ranged weapons. The english definition of "ranged" seems to apply in this situation. In fact, the description of thrown weapons implies they become ranged weapons when they are being thrown.

Plus, none of the thrown weapons do more damage than a bow, which can be used for a sneak attack. So, it doesn't appear to create any balance issues.

The only thing this rule would change is whether or not you could play a strength-based rogue who threw weapons at people for sneak attacks. Which might be a cool character and I don't see it being overpowered or particularly horrible in terms of story.

A ranged weapon uses dexterity as a base stat, where thrown assumes strength. There are exceptions, for example the dagger and the dart which are both finesse weapons. There's that, as well as the feats, class abilities, and other rules that draw a distinct difference between ranged and thrown melee weapons. I do see the logic of categorizing them together, if for no other reason than you using them at range, and not maintaining control of the item after its use, but again, the rules draw a clear line between, even if they use nearly identical mechanics.

Edit: I might call bullcrap on myself. Reading up on it.

Edit 2: A ranged weapon is distinctly different from a weapon that is used to make a ranged attack (RAW).

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

A ranged weapon uses dexterity as a base stat, where thrown assumes strength. There are exceptions, for example the dagger and the dart which are both finesse weapons. There's that, as well as the feats, class abilities, and other rules that draw a distinct difference between ranged and thrown melee weapons. I do see the logic of categorizing them together, if for no other reason than you using them at range, and not maintaining control of the item after its use, but again, the rules draw a clear line between, even if they use nearly identical mechanics.

Ranged weapons in the chart certainly do use Dex modifier to hit and damage. There's certainly something to be said that maybe the logic was that in order to do sneak attack damage the weapon had to be "precise", which means you are using your Dex mod to hit. But RAW, you can use a Rapier with your 18 strength, 8 dex rogue and still do sneak attack damage because the weapon is a finesse weapon.

The answer from Mike Mearls above implies that the reason they chose ranged weapons and finesse weapons was the easily restrict sneak attacks to low dice damage weapons to prevent people from sneak attacking with 2d6 greatswords and getting huge damage.

I guess my major question is that if you asked someone on the street who hadn't read the 5e rules whether they'd consider a thrown axe to be a "Ranged weapon" if they'd say yes(which I imagine the vast majority of people would) then why are they not ranged weapons? I certainly have not seen a line in the book that says "Thrown Weapons are not ranged weapons". In fact, the book says that ranged attacks can be made with bows, thrown weapons or even spells. Now, spells are not weapons so I can see restricting them from sneak attack but there doesn't seem to be a reason to stop people from using thrown weapons to sneak attack. The only argument I can really see as to why they aren't ranged weapons is that they don't use dex and they don't appear under the "ranged weapons" chart in the equipment section.

I know I've already ruled that the Sharpshooter feat can be used with thrown weapons since they seem ranged to me.

The problem is when a rules item uses a world that already has an english meaning. Monte Cook wrote about this in an article a while back. He said he hated when classes were named things like "Fighter" because then every time you used the word "Fighter" in the book or when running the game, everyone assumed you were referring to the class when you might have just been referring to someone who was fighting.

I think the same problem applies here. There are "Ranged Weapons" which are weapons that use Dex to hit and cannot be used in melee. Then there are "Ranged Weapons" which are any weapons that are being used at range. When the book refers to one, it might be referring to either. The problem is that we can't really know which one they are referring to because they are named the same thing.

I'm willing to accept the answer from Mearls means that in this case they meant the latter rather than the former.

 

[Kikuras]

Ranged weapons in the chart certainly do use Dex modifier to hit and damage. There's certainly something to be said that maybe the logic was that in order to do sneak attack damage the weapon had to be "precise", which means you are using your Dex mod to hit. But RAW, you can use a Rapier with your 18 strength, 8 dex rogue and still do sneak attack damage because the weapon is a finesse weapon.

After making two edits on my post, then walking away, I realized that I had read something that went in the face of my own final conclusion. I think you're right. The 'Range' entry under Weapon Properties (pg 147 PHB) notes that the ranged property applies to any weapon (extrapolated to mean to use it as a ranged weapon, there is RAW to this that I don't want to go into) that has a range, 20/60, 30/120, etc. The table given on pg 149 is VERY misleading in that it classifies certain weapons as ranged, when by RAW range is determined by the property of the weapon, not as a distinct class of weaponry.

This sort of causes a problem, however (though I suppose not a big one). That would then mean that any weapon could in theory be used to sneak attack thanks to the improvised weapon rules. So yeah, throw that shield like Captain America. Or the greatsword being chucked at a goblin, not exactly a precision weapon. So there's all sorts of conflicting ideals, but as far as RAW goes, I'd allow all thrown. RAI, hell if I know.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

The only argument I can really see as to why they aren't ranged weapons is that they don't use dex and they don't appear under the "ranged weapons" chart in the equipment section.

That's what I understand. To me, the sneak attack rule is really saying "Sneak Attack requires a DEX weapon".

As an aside, can a rogue use STR to hit or do you think it would be fair to rule that sneak attacks must always be made using DEX?

I think the same problem applies here. There are "Ranged Weapons" which are weapons that use Dex to hit and cannot be used in melee. Then there are "Ranged Weapons" which are any weapons that are being used at range. When the book refers to one, it might be referring to either.

I'm (somewhat) sure that the book uses "ranged weapon" to indicate weapons that use DEX (some of these are ammo, some of these are thrown) and "ranged attack" to indicate an attack at range (either with an ammo weapon or a thrown weapon or a spell).

You are right about the problem, however. The difference between these types confused me. I attempted to write a different weapon table, but messed up. Would it have killed WotC to just have a column "DEX/STR" or to name the groups "STR Weapons" and "DEX Weapons"? That way we could break the table down nicely into "STR Melee", "STR Thrown", "Versatile Melee", "Versatile Thrown", "DEX Thrown" and "DEX Ammo", and we could say things like "Sharpshooter applies to Ammo weapons" and "Two-Weapon Fighting Applies to Melee and Thrown weapons".and "Sneak attack applies to all Versatile and DEX weapons".

 

[Zaruthustran]

This one's easy.

Sneak attack requires "a finesse or a ranged weapon."

There's a chart on page 149 that describes all the weapons in the game*. The chart is broken up into Simple and Martial weapons. Those groupings are further classified as either Melee or Ranged. Page 146 explains these classifications.

Sneak attack works with any Simple Ranged Weapon or Martial Ranged Weapon on that chart.

It also works with any weapon on that chart that has the Finesse property.

It really is that simple.

Note that the rules for Sneak Attack don't care about whether the attack is a melee attack or ranged attack. They care about the weapon used. That's important. All ranged weapons (defined as a weapon on the chart on page 149 under "Simple Ranged Weapons" or "Martial Ranged Weapons) work with Sneak Attack. All Finesse weapons (defined as a weapon on the chart on page 149 that has the Finesse property) work with Sneak Attack.

The OP asked if thrown weapons can be used for Sneak Attack. The answer is yes, if the weapon: 1) is a weapon (appears on the weapon chart); 2) has the Finesse property; 3) has the Thrown property.

Someone mentioned Improvised Weapons (page 147). By a strict reading of the rules, Improvised Weapons aren't weapons. They're "any object you can wield in one or two hands." The key word being "object." Improvised Weapons are objects-used-as-weapons, not weapons.

While you can make melee attacks with an Improvised Weapon, and you can make ranged attacks with an Improvised Weapon, Improvised Weapons are neither Simple nor Martial, and they're neither Melee Weapons nor Ranged Weapons. Put another way: Improvised Weapons don't appear on the Weapon chart.

* DMs can of course add more. And as page 78 points out, you can call those weapons by different names without changing their game statistics.