TSR TSR (2) Confirms TSR (3)'s Acquisition of Trademark (Updated!)

Jayson Elliot registered the TSR trademark back in 2011 and used it to launch Gygax Magazine along with Ernie and Luke Gygax. The two Gygax's left the company a few years later after Gary Gygax's (co-founder of TSR (1) back in the 1970s) widow, Gail Gygax, forced the closure of Gygax Magazine. Then, earlier this year, TSR (3) swooped in on the TSR trademark, after Jayson Elliot accidentally let it lapse, as TSR (2) confirms:

We have owned the TSR trademark since 2011. Last year, we missed a filing date, and another company registered it, though we are still using it in commerce. While we could win a lawsuit, we frankly don't have the money to litigate. So, we're licensing it back from them.

As a result, there are two companies now using the name TSR. You can tell when it's us because we're the only ones using the new logo.

They're opening a museum in Lake Geneva at the old TSR house, and we wish them success with it, it's important to celebrate the legacy that Gary Gygax created.

Ernie Gygax, formerly of TSR (1) under Gary Gygax, then working with Jayson Elliot as part of TSR (2), is one of the founders of of TSR (3), and confirmed in his (now infamous) interview --

The other TSR is a licensee because [Jayson Elliot] let it lapse. But he had absolutely ... love for the game and the products. There was no reason to say 'oh you've screwed up, oh it's all ours, ha ha ha ha!' Instead, Justin [LaNasa] came to him and said ... we love that you're doing Top Secret things, we have a much broader goal for the whole thing. But there's no reason for you to stop or even have any troubles. Justin said, I'll take care of the paperwork, you just give me $10 a year, and you put out all this love for old school gaming that you can. And we appreciate that you were there to try and pick up things, and you produced Gygax Magazine, for in its time that you're also working on a game that you love to play ... because Top Secret was Jayson's love, as a young man.

TSR (2), still run by Jayson Elliot, publishes Top Secret, and is not connected to TSR (3) other than now having to license it’s own name from them. TSR (3) has also registered the trademark to Star Frontiers, a game owned by and still currently sold by D&D-owner WotC.

In other news the GYGAX trademark appears to have lapsed.

UPDATE! TSR (2) has decided NOT to license its own name from TSR (3):

Update to our earlier tweet - we will NOT be licensing anything from the new company claiming rights to the TSR logos. We are not working with them in any fashion.

 

[Cadence]

Nah, not caring about things is boring.

Not caring about most things (much) is the only way to get anything done when sitting at a computer on the internet anymore. Needing to tell people you don't care wipes out all of that benefit of not caring though.

 

[darjr]

So the dice they are selling are, apparently, Dollar Tree dice!

 

[Doug McCrae]

the context is likely obscured by time, and they may well have had a varied view at different times in their lives even on the same topic.

The linked comments that approvingly quote the 19th century genocidal racist, Colonel Chivington, were made by Gary Gygax in 2005 when he was 66 years old. He died aged 69.

So I think we can focus on "I think the idea that women will never appreciate role playing games is flawed and, though likely strongly influenced by societal norms at the time, even in that context I wish a more enlightened view had been taken..."

More enlightened views were being taken at the time. Sexism in rpgs was a contested topic in the 1970s and 1980s.

Jon Peterson's Playing at the World (2012) describes the debate in fanzines such as Alarums & Excursions:

The inherent sexism of the fantasy literary tradition, let alone the mere term "fighting man," set a lasting tone for fantasy role-playing, for better or for worse. When Lenard Lakofka wrote his article "Notes on Women & Magic – Bringing the Distaff Gamer into D&D" in the Dragon #3 (Oct 1976), which for example substituted out the "Charisma" ability in favor of "Beauty," he did little but exacerbate the implication of innate gender differences in the game. Such questions were hotly debated in the fanzines of the day, especially in Alarums & Excursions, where many prominent gamers upheld the innate inferiority of females as physical warriors.​

On Peterson's account most writers at the time defended sexism. But the fact that it was "hotly debated" demonstrates that one or more must have taken an opposing view.

Sexist game art was criticised in reviews published in White Dwarf magazine #21 (1980) and Different Worlds #14 (1981).

A review by Kirby Lee Davis of the rpg The Spawn of Fashan in Different Worlds #19 (1982) criticises differing attributes for male and female PCs:

Female characters are another problem. The introduction has a disclaimer that using the pronoun 'he' in referring to characters is not sexist. However, the initial constitution and strength of females is half that of males and these characteristics improve at one quarter the rate for males. In compensation, females increase their charisma and gain Intuition (which is described in the Mental Illness Table). Such an approach to women is neither fair nor realistic.​

A letter from Shirley Carbery in White Dwarf #70 (1985) criticises several aspects of sexism in rpging:

Over a year ago I was first introduced to AD&D, but the more I have played it the more concerned I have become about the structure of the game and the presentation of women with it.​

​

The whole fabric of the pseudo-mediaeval games appears male-orientated. Of course, within the rules you have a choice of what sex you wish your adopted character to be but from then on the system seems to expect you to be male. The female fantasy characters encountered (the few that show up) seem more likely to be serving wenches or prostitutes.​

​

I nearly brained my DM when he told me the rules of choosing to play a female character and the restraint of not being able to attain the maximum strength of 18 – unless I was a half-orc. Not exactly a fair rule and thanks to the DM it was ignored.​

​

Illustrations within WD involving over the top females verge upon soft porn. I will not be fobbed off with excuses of historic nostalgia that women have been portrayed like this in pulp fantasy since 1920. Surely now it is time for change?​

​

One example is Thrud in WD67. What at first glance appears to be womanhood getting their own back on men shows, on closer inspection, that the last laugh is on women themselves.​

​

RPGs could be very educational and highly entertaining. I think it is a great shame considering what they have to offer that so few women seem to be involved and playing them. In my opinion the stereotypical, subservient female has to be done away with before women will be encouraged to participate more.​

The subject was debated in White Dwarf's letters page over the next few issues, with most of the published letters supporting Carbery's position, perhaps indicating a shift in prevailing opinion from the mid-70s to the mid-80s.

 

[Sithlord]

Delete. Off Topic

 

[Sacrosanct]

The linked comments that approvingly quote the 19th century genocidal racist, Colonel Chivington, were made by Gary Gygax in 2005 when he was 66 years old. He died aged 69.


More enlightened views were being taken at the time. Sexism in rpgs was a contested topic in the 1970s and 1980s.

Jon Peterson's Playing at the World (2012) describes the debate in fanzines such as Alarums & Excursions:

The inherent sexism of the fantasy literary tradition, let alone the mere term "fighting man," set a lasting tone for fantasy role-playing, for better or for worse. When Lenard Lakofka wrote his article "Notes on Women & Magic – Bringing the Distaff Gamer into D&D" in the Dragon #3 (Oct 1976), which for example substituted out the "Charisma" ability in favor of "Beauty," he did little but exacerbate the implication of innate gender differences in the game. Such questions were hotly debated in the fanzines of the day, especially in Alarums & Excursions, where many prominent gamers upheld the innate inferiority of females as physical warriors.​

On Peterson's account most writers at the time defended sexism. But the fact that it was "hotly debated" demonstrates that one or more must have taken an opposing view.

Sexist game art was criticised in reviews published in White Dwarf magazine #21 (1980) and Different Worlds #14 (1981).

A review by Kirby Lee Davis of the rpg The Spawn of Fashan in Different Worlds #19 (1982) criticises differing attributes for male and female PCs:

Female characters are another problem. The introduction has a disclaimer that using the pronoun 'he' in referring to characters is not sexist. However, the initial constitution and strength of females is half that of males and these characteristics improve at one quarter the rate for males. In compensation, females increase their charisma and gain Intuition (which is described in the Mental Illness Table). Such an approach to women is neither fair nor realistic.​

A letter from Shirley Carbery in White Dwarf #70 (1985) criticises several aspects of sexism in rpging:

Over a year ago I was first introduced to AD&D, but the more I have played it the more concerned I have become about the structure of the game and the presentation of women with it.​

​

The whole fabric of the pseudo-mediaeval games appears male-orientated. Of course, within the rules you have a choice of what sex you wish your adopted character to be but from then on the system seems to expect you to be male. The female fantasy characters encountered (the few that show up) seem more likely to be serving wenches or prostitutes.​

​

I nearly brained my DM when he told me the rules of choosing to play a female character and the restraint of not being able to attain the maximum strength of 18 – unless I was a half-orc. Not exactly a fair rule and thanks to the DM it was ignored.​

​

Illustrations within WD involving over the top females verge upon soft porn. I will not be fobbed off with excuses of historic nostalgia that women have been portrayed like this in pulp fantasy since 1920. Surely now it is time for change?​

​

One example is Thrud in WD67. What at first glance appears to be womanhood getting their own back on men shows, on closer inspection, that the last laugh is on women themselves.​

​

RPGs could be very educational and highly entertaining. I think it is a great shame considering what they have to offer that so few women seem to be involved and playing them. In my opinion the stereotypical, subservient female has to be done away with before women will be encouraged to participate more.​

The subject was debated in White Dwarf's letters page over the next few issues, with most of the published letters supporting Carbery's position, perhaps indicating a shift in prevailing opinion from the mid-70s to the mid-80s.

This is way more detailed than my "I don't buy that argument because it's not like combating sexism didn't exist in the 70s/80s, and they'd have to be living under a rock to not have known about the movie 9 to 5." in the other closed thread lol. If I could give two likes, just for the research and cited sources alone, I'd do it.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

I'm sorry.

I want to vomit.

I will be very curious what Jon Peterson Jr. writes about this whole incident 50 years from now...

But seriously, while sexism was a problem back then (as it is still a problem now), even then there were plenty of voices being raised against it, even specifically in the gaming industry. Dragon magazine itself had articles and letters decrying the sexist elements. Second Wave Feminism hit around 1960 and was still going strong when D&D was first created. If a person is a "product of their time," it's because they weren't listening, because they chose to be.

The linked comments that approvingly quote the 19th century genocidal racist, Colonel Chivington, were made by Gary Gygax in 2005 when he was 66 years old. He died aged 69.


More enlightened views were being taken at the time. Sexism in rpgs was a contested topic in the 1970s and 1980s.

Jon Peterson's Playing at the World (2012) describes the debate in fanzines such as Alarums & Excursions:

The inherent sexism of the fantasy literary tradition, let alone the mere term "fighting man," set a lasting tone for fantasy role-playing, for better or for worse. When Lenard Lakofka wrote his article "Notes on Women & Magic – Bringing the Distaff Gamer into D&D" in the Dragon #3 (Oct 1976), which for example substituted out the "Charisma" ability in favor of "Beauty," he did little but exacerbate the implication of innate gender differences in the game. Such questions were hotly debated in the fanzines of the day, especially in Alarums & Excursions, where many prominent gamers upheld the innate inferiority of females as physical warriors.​

On Peterson's account most writers at the time defended sexism. But the fact that it was "hotly debated" demonstrates that one or more must have taken an opposing view.

Sexist game art was criticised in reviews published in White Dwarf magazine #21 (1980) and Different Worlds #14 (1981).

A review by Kirby Lee Davis of the rpg The Spawn of Fashan in Different Worlds #19 (1982) criticises differing attributes for male and female PCs:

Female characters are another problem. The introduction has a disclaimer that using the pronoun 'he' in referring to characters is not sexist. However, the initial constitution and strength of females is half that of males and these characteristics improve at one quarter the rate for males. In compensation, females increase their charisma and gain Intuition (which is described in the Mental Illness Table). Such an approach to women is neither fair nor realistic.​

A letter from Shirley Carbery in White Dwarf #70 (1985) criticises several aspects of sexism in rpging:

Over a year ago I was first introduced to AD&D, but the more I have played it the more concerned I have become about the structure of the game and the presentation of women with it.​

​

The whole fabric of the pseudo-mediaeval games appears male-orientated. Of course, within the rules you have a choice of what sex you wish your adopted character to be but from then on the system seems to expect you to be male. The female fantasy characters encountered (the few that show up) seem more likely to be serving wenches or prostitutes.​

​

I nearly brained my DM when he told me the rules of choosing to play a female character and the restraint of not being able to attain the maximum strength of 18 – unless I was a half-orc. Not exactly a fair rule and thanks to the DM it was ignored.​

​

Illustrations within WD involving over the top females verge upon soft porn. I will not be fobbed off with excuses of historic nostalgia that women have been portrayed like this in pulp fantasy since 1920. Surely now it is time for change?​

​

One example is Thrud in WD67. What at first glance appears to be womanhood getting their own back on men shows, on closer inspection, that the last laugh is on women themselves.​

​

RPGs could be very educational and highly entertaining. I think it is a great shame considering what they have to offer that so few women seem to be involved and playing them. In my opinion the stereotypical, subservient female has to be done away with before women will be encouraged to participate more.​

The subject was debated in White Dwarf's letters page over the next few issues, with most of the published letters supporting Carbery's position, perhaps indicating a shift in prevailing opinion from the mid-70s to the mid-80s.

Between this and all the Gygax Estate case stuff, the lawyers are going to be very busy in Lake Geneva...

 

[Doug McCrae]

This is way more detailed than my "I don't buy that argument because it's not like combating sexism didn't exist in the 70s/80s, and they'd have to be living under a rock to not have known about the movie 9 to 5." in the other closed thread lol. If I could give two likes, just for the research and cited sources alone, I'd do it.

Thanks! I can provide some even stronger and earlier evidence that the creators of D&D knew about (although they disagreed with) the feminist movement. D&D Book IV Greyhawk (1975): "There is only one King of Lawful Dragons, just as there is only one Queen of Chaotic Dragons (Women's Lib may make whatever they wish from the foregoing)."

 

[Charlaquin]

"There is only one King of Lawful Dragons, just as there is only one Queen of Chaotic Dragons (Women’s Lib may make whatever they wish from the foregoing)."

Anticipating Jordan Peterson by a good 40 years

 

[lyle.spade]

Nah, not caring about things is boring.

On the other hand, people basing conclusions off assumptions with little to no evidence is silly. So in this case I'll take boring.

 

[Giantrollorc]

Meh… I’m gonna grab “Giantlands”. Looks like a cool idea for a game. I might like it, maybe I won’t…. Who knows.