D&D General The Crab Bucket Fallacy

[Minigiant]

You do this a lot. You claimed "the DMG doesn't give advice, examples, or rules on how to do any of that. " in Post in thread 'The Crab Bucket Fallacy' https://www.enworld.org/threads/the-crab-bucket-fallacy.699952/post-9146124 which is obviously not true.

Now it's just that it's bad advice. That's fine, it's your opinion. No one I know of disagrees. So why are you now trying to make it sound like I, or anyone else, disagrees?

Social and exploration being "hack and slash"? That aspect of the game has pretty much always been what you make out of it. Luckily there are plenty of examples out there just a search away if anyone actually needs or wants it.

My claim has been that the DMG advice has been too narrow for the diverse community.

The DMG social interaction is good only for people who do not use social mechanics in a serious manner. Advice for people who aren't using it. There is no advice for people who might go a whole 3 hour session with just social interaction. The DMG rules are more for penalty for dumping Charisma than using it.

It's much like how the game has tool proficiency. Rules and advice to use tools in a meaningful way in a dungeoneering environment is in Xanatar's.

The fact you have to go out to 3PPs, youtube videos, blogs, podcasters, and later books is proof that thisstuff was missing. Patches are not placed on nonexistent holes.

But many have said that "5e is the most successful edition and you arguments don't make sense because so many enjoy it.". Well that's because the community fixed it. here on ENworld. There on other forums. 3PPs. Youtube. Twitch. Live plays. DMGuild. No edition has received this much external support. There are tons of info to fix or run 5e social interactions. That means the 5e core rules were not complete nor near so.

 

[Minigiant]

No. They need to roleplay in line with their character's personality. That is what roleplaying is. A conversation is about your personality, not your skill.

That's a playstyle choice.

Roll, Role, or Mix.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Again... so they aren't allowed to roleplay lest they reduce their chance of success.

Are they rolling the dice themselves, or not?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

That's a playstyle choice.

Roll, Role, or Mix.

I don't consider roleplaying to be an optional part of a roleplaying game.

 

[Minigiant]

I don't consider roleplaying to be an optional part of a roleplaying game.

It's not.
It's degrees.

Does the guard allow entry because of Bob's roleplay of Grag the Barbarian, Grag's stats, or a mixture of both?
And how many rolls are made? 0? 1? 2? 5? 10? 20?

All of these answers are valid in D&D.

 

[Scott Christian]

I don't consider roleplaying to be an optional part of a roleplaying game.

Agreed. I in fact, have never seen it be an optional part of the game. I've seen quiet players that rarely say anything. But they still played the class they want, from fighters to barbarians, but also bards and paladins.

They still haven't answered my simple question: Does everyone in their party just sit there and be quiet or do they enter the conversation too? And if they do enter the conversation, does the DM always only allow the high charisma character to roll, or does he do it based on something natural, like a fighter stepping forward and then saying something that triggers a persuasion check?

It is baffling to me.

 

[Oofta]

My claim has been that the DMG advice has been too narrow for the diverse community.

The DMG social interaction is good only for people who do not use social mechanics in a serious manner. Advice for people who aren't using it. There is no advice for people who might go a whole 3 hour session with just social interaction. The DMG rules are more for penalty for dumping Charisma than using it.

It's much like how the game has tool proficiency. Rules and advice to use tools in a meaningful way in a dungeoneering environment is in Xanatar's.

The fact you have to go out to 3PPs, youtube videos, blogs, podcasters, and later books is proof that thisstuff was missing. Patches are not placed on nonexistent holes.

But many have said that "5e is the most successful edition and you arguments don't make sense because so many enjoy it.". Well that's because the community fixed it. here on ENworld. There on other forums. 3PPs. Youtube. Twitch. Live plays. DMGuild. No edition has received this much external support. There are tons of info to fix or run 5e social interactions. That means the 5e core rules were not complete nor near so.

I don't even know what, exactly you're arguing any more. That the DMG should be improved? We all agree. The game still holds together though in spite of it, just like D&D took off despite the inscrutable Gygaxian prose and lack of consistency.

Or is it that the advice given has grown over the years? Why is that a bad thing? Again, you're arguing something that everyone acknowledges. The core books are not perfect, it's why we hope the 2024 edition will build on what's been learned over the past decade.

About the only thing I disagree with is that no single book can possibly be the best source of information for everyone? That I'll disagree with. For some people reading the book is enough because despite what you state they do give a broad outline, just not in as much detail as you might like. But some people will never learn from reading a book or one perspective. Perhaps they need a variety of live streams or blogs or ask questions on forums. I think it's silly to discount all of those sources.

D&D does not exist in a vacuum of officially published materials. We have 3PP rules supplements for people that want them, whether that's adding new monsters like Kobold Press, a different take on classes like Morrus's Level Up, rules on Strongholds from Matt Collville, roughly a bazillion other sources on DmsGuild and other sources. Then there are streamed shows, blogs, on and on. There is no way WOTC can, or even should, try to provide all the things those external sources provide.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Agreed. I in fact, have never seen it be an optional part of the game. I've seen quiet players that rarely say anything. But they still played the class they want, from fighters to barbarians, but also bards and paladins.

They still haven't answered my simple question: Does everyone in their party just sit there and be quiet or do they enter the conversation too? And if they do enter the conversation, does the DM always only allow the high charisma character to roll, or does he do it based on something natural, like a fighter stepping forward and then saying something that triggers a persuasion check?

It is baffling to me.

In many cases yes, the other players do just sit there and let the face talk, and then roll. It happens all the time IME.

 

[Minigiant]

Agreed. I in fact, have never seen it be an optional part of the game. I've seen quiet players that rarely say anything. But they still played the class they want, from fighters to barbarians, but also bards and paladins.

They still haven't answered my simple question: Does everyone in their party just sit there and be quiet or do they enter the conversation too? And if they do enter the conversation, does the DM always only allow the high charisma character to roll, or does he do it based on something natural, like a fighter stepping forward and then saying something that triggers a persuasion check?

It is baffling to me.

The other players.

If your character fails a certain check a lot that they don't have a good bonus for, the other players will discourage them from rolling that stat if possible.

OR like in combat... everyone dies due to constant failure.

What's baffling to me is some of you seem to have never heard "X is your job." in D&D.

 

[Neonchameleon]

No. They need to roleplay in line with their character's personality. That is what roleplaying is. A conversation is about your personality, not your skill.

The two are not unlinked. And when someone is a screwup who keeps getting all of you into lethal trouble (as messing up social rolls may do) they need to learn that it's dangerous and the rest of their party needs to learn that they are dangerous.

This is a flaw in D&D.